substitution vs participation

[JugglingReferee]

Well said ajmc. I hope the OP coach learns something here. (Coach: feel free to reply to me without my fearing you do so for the last word. )

[Forksref]

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Forksref

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

And under the principle that you will always make someone unhappy, we had a coach complain last year when we only penalized his the opponent for 5 yards. He argued that we should have let the play go and penalize them for 15, and by not doing so we cheated his team out of 10 yards.

[dumbref]

I agree – the rule was applied correctly under the circumstances. As for the behavior of the referee, the dad and the coach – it was absolutely deplorable by all. We are the adults and should set the example for the kids. What message did you send to your players?

Whether the call is correct or just wrong – there is a decorum that should be followed and a certain amount of respect that should be shown by all parties. The kids will learn a lot about conflict resolution from you coach. Are you proud of what you are teaching?

I’m not excusing the official from this either – shame on both of you! As for the dad - put him in the stands where he belongs.

[hawkishowl20]

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

In your description, the defensive team had 12 players participating during the down. Nowhere in your play is the replaced player trying to leave the field.

Techincally speaking, that's how.

[hawkishowl20]

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

[JRutledge]

My crew philosophy is to try to shut it down if there is clearly a substitution infraction or 12 people on the field. If that cannot happen the rules are in place to have a live ball substitution foul. I do not feel this is only the officials fault because many teams bring a lot of people on and off the field, especially on the defensive side of the ball; it can be hard to determine who is on the field and who should be off the field.

Peace

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

Rule 9.6.4c - It is illegal participation...To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick.

I don't understand your continued refusal to accept what everyone says here but it doesn't surprise me at all. The bottom line is, if the official recognized the problem before the snap and flags it, you get a dead ball illegal sub foul. If he doesn't, you get a live ball illegal part foul and no amount of sideline lawyering is going to change it to a dead ball foul. Time to live with it and move on.

editted to add....why is it always us bad officials are "taking it out on the players" when we are simply enforcing the penalties required due to player/coach actions?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

As a Wisconsin official, I tried working Saturday youth football right after I moved to the state. I gave that up after too many encounters with hothead know-it-alls like this original poster. Now I only work school ball where I have complete control of the situation. I have a varsity crew and if youth football wasn't so disorganized here, I'd have my crew working on Saturdays for experience and for some extra moolah. It just isn't worth it.

Look, OP: You are absolutely right. If the crew (and that's a big if, especially if your organization is CHEEEEEAP and hires only 3 officials to work these games, which is pretty normal, I've found) they are simply not going to get a count in before every snap of the game. If they do, fine, it's a five yard illegal substitution penalty.

If they don't get a count before the snap and 12 play, it's illegal participation, live ball, 15 yards. And before you pass this blame on the officials, WHO PUT 12 ON THE FIELD IN THE FIRST PLACE?

As far as the conduct of the official and your conduct, I would be happy that youth programs where coaches act like you did are able to get any licensed officials to work. Be thankful. I wouldn't touch youth football again unless things changed dramatically around here.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul.

I'm curious as to how you know when the official realized there were 12 on the field. You are assuming that he knew before the snap based on what evidence??? Maybe he realized it as the play was happening and he saw two corners standing out there side-by-side and thought "That doesn't look right."

What exactly makes you think he knew, didn't kill it, and chose to let it go live vs. he didn't know until it was live???

[Sonofanump]

Was this 4 man or 5 man? Maybe you should have informed the official before the play started that you had 12 guys on the field so they could have stopped the play to give you a 5 yarder.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I'm curious as to how you know when the official realized there were 12 on the field. You are assuming that he knew before the snap based on what evidence??? Maybe he realized it as the play was happening and he saw two corners standing out there side-by-side and thought "That doesn't look right."

What exactly makes you think he knew, didn't kill it, and chose to let it go live vs. he didn't know until it was live???

1)The hand on the flag well before the snap and waiting to throw it immediately as the ball was snapped was a tip off.
2)People yelling “get off the field” to the player substituted close to but well before the snap probably gave him a chance to figure out what was going on.
3)The substitution happened during a timeout and the opposing team was slow to return to the field which was a lot of time to do the required count.
4)When I stated correctly rules that contradicted his call, instead of trying to clarify the discrepancy he tried to pick a fight with me, which generally weakens any defense of him.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

I count players before each play. If I have something different than 11 I count again. If I verify that there's more than 11 on the field then I'll flag it as an illegal sub and kill the play. If the ball is snapped while I'm still counting then the only choice is illegal participation.