substitution vs participation

[wisref2]

As a Wisconsin official, I'll tell you the the call was correct - illegal participation (Wisc. uses NFHS rules). According to your post, the replaced player stayed on the field during the play. So, you had 12 on the field during the play - that is illegal participation, a 15 yard live-ball foul.

As to your behavior, I can only judge by your post because I wasn't there. You stated that since he got the call wrong, he was an idiot. However, you were the one who got the call wrong.

So who is the idiot.

The rule in question is 9-6-3. No replaced player.....shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate. Illegal participation.

Since your player stayed on the field, he both influenced the play and participated. Before you question the influencing part, he influenced because he was on the field during the play and therefor the offense had to account for him in their blocking decisions.

[daggo66]

It's my opion that if illegal participation is called then the crew screwed up. We should be counting during each and every dead ball and calling illegal substitution when we count 12. That being said sometimes it happens. Sometimes at the youth level the rugrats are tough to count. They are rarely still or in the correct place, still it's part of our job to count them correctly. The official in question should never turn his back to discuss anything with a coach while play is continuing. As a coach, you should have requested a time out to discuss the ruling in a calm manner with the crew chief. If your point was upheld you would not be charged for the timeout. Just as this official was not paying attention to the game when his back was turned to you, you were not paying attention to your team while they were running a play. When you are yelling across the field at an official you are doing your team a disservice.

[Mike L]

Technically regarding the call, you were wrong and the official was right but it definitely could have been handled better by all parties involved.

[ajmc]

Sorry coach, you were wrong on a number of levels and are responsible for creating an unnecessary level of tension that could have (maybe even should have) caused your disqualification.

First, your understanding of the rules you are referencing is totally incorrect. Yes, illegal substitution is a 5 yard dead ball foul, and Illegal participation is a live ball 15 yard foul. Forgive me, but because you and your defensive coordinator are not on the same page is not the officials problem.

Officials should, and usually do, count both teams before the snap specifically to avoid situations like this one. As suggested, however, for various reasons the counts are not sometimes completed in time and the play goes off. Again, the correct number of players on the field is not the officials responsibility, it's yours. When 12, or more, players participate in the play, the correct call is illegal participation, a live ball 15 yard penalty.

Forgive me again, as I presume your version of the story might be a little sugar coated, but that's reality based on a lot of "conversations" with coaches regarding their misunderstanding of rules. Something tells me, when you decided the official enforced the "wrong penalty" your tone was less of questioning and perhaps a little accusitory, which is an absolutely losing strategy to employ. It might be your skill at, "now picking up on this guy being an idiot", but it likely affected your attitude, in the wrong direction and helped this discussion go down hill. Mistake number 2.

Your concern for the game progressing while the Referee was talking to you, was mistake number 3. Your commenting on that was a disrespectful suggestion that he was not fulfilling his primary responsibility of managing the game, was simply, unnecessary and added nothing positive to your discussion. Quoting rules, or what you think are the rules, suggesting ignorance on the part of the Referee is a dangerous tactic if you're seeking cooperation.

You'll get a lot better reaction if you keep things in the form of a question and wait for clarification, rather than just accusing him of being uninformed.

As for the parent, hopefully he paid to get in and therefore earned the privlege of saying (pretty much) whatever he wants, but he should not expect that anything he says matters or deserves any kind of response. He is entitled to his opinion, but that opinion is simply not relevant.

Your attempt to get in the last word, with, "I don’t care, you have final say on making the wrong call, you’re the official, but I’m notifying you that your wrong so you never do it again", was clearly mistake number 4 and 5.

Mistake number 4, because you were dead wrong about the rule itself, and mistake number 5 because your comment could have caused you to spend the rest of the game in the parking lot. The "last word" is always up for grabs, but it can often be very expensive.

Allow me to suggest you familiarize yourself with another NF rule, NF:3.5.11 it describes the civil manner in which a coach may question any rule application in a calm, relaxed manner. Even fully understanding that rule, I would suggest a tone of questioning, rather than declaring, will produce much more favorable results.

Coaching is an often difficult, frustrating experience and it requires your full focus. Officiating is also a job that requires specialized training, dedication and committment. Rarely do we find individuals who are capable of being competent in both roles, because the roles pull in opposite directions.

[JugglingReferee]

Well said ajmc. I hope the OP coach learns something here. (Coach: feel free to reply to me without my fearing you do so for the last word. )

[Forksref]

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Forksref

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

And under the principle that you will always make someone unhappy, we had a coach complain last year when we only penalized his the opponent for 5 yards. He argued that we should have let the play go and penalize them for 15, and by not doing so we cheated his team out of 10 yards.

[dumbref]

I agree – the rule was applied correctly under the circumstances. As for the behavior of the referee, the dad and the coach – it was absolutely deplorable by all. We are the adults and should set the example for the kids. What message did you send to your players?

Whether the call is correct or just wrong – there is a decorum that should be followed and a certain amount of respect that should be shown by all parties. The kids will learn a lot about conflict resolution from you coach. Are you proud of what you are teaching?

I’m not excusing the official from this either – shame on both of you! As for the dad - put him in the stands where he belongs.