No one saw it!

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by parepat

This happened in last friday (thankfully not to me). What would you have done.

With 25 seconds to go, home team scores to bring the score to 27-28 in favor of the visitors. Home team attempts a 2 point try. On the try the home team runs a hand off up the middle. The wings run in and neither has a spot. Both yell in that they don't have it. In the meantime the runner stands up with the ball approximately 4 yards deep in the end zone. The other 3 officials also state that they did not see how the ball got into the endzone. After approximately 45 seconds, the referee signals that the try was unsuccessful. Thoughts.

My first question is why did the wings rush in if they did not have the ball? Recall the Eli Manning pass from the Super Bowl when Mike Carey came in only to see Eli get loose and Carey had to quickly retreat.

If it was the runner who took the handoff that was four yards deep in the end zone and no one on the crew had any evidence that the ball was fumbled, why would you not allow the score?

Its the old metaphor if you go to bed and wake up the next morning with snow on the ground you can be reasonably certain it snowed.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

My first question is why did the wings rush in if they did not have the ball? Recall the Eli Manning pass from the Super Bowl when Mike Carey came in only to see Eli get loose and Carey had to quickly retreat.

Carey was a WH not a wing. The wings have to come in on an apparent goal line plunge into the line. It's a critical call and it just can't be done from the sideline. It would be rare that they'd be caught by a fake for more than a second or two, but if they did they can stop. I agree that you don't need all officials within a couple feet of each other, but the wings have to get the call.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: In reading through the thread, no one has said to rule the try unsuccessful. For those that might be thinking that, but have not posted, answer this simple rhetorical question: If the Team A coach asked you where (on what yardline) the ball became dead, what would you tell him??

[MJT]

How could it be anything but a TD. As stated, good reason to have the B (or S, F, and B in 7-man) stay back and have some range of vision.

[prosec34]

First of all, I would never be yelling to anyone that I didn't see what happened. You can communicate to your partners without letting the coaches and fans hear you.

As a wing, you have to set up close to the nearest end on this play, and come in hard if it's going up the middle. Hopefully one of the wings gets a clear look. Sometimes they don't, despite their best efforts. That's when it's the umpires duty to extrapolate what occurred. We had a play like this last week in a varsity game, where both of us wings were blocked out. When everyone unpiled, most of the ballcarrier's upper body as well as the ball were in the endzone. Our umpire promptly ruled touchdown. I would note that he knew to take over the call without either of us wings saying a word. After all, we hadn't blown the ball dead, we hadn't shown a spot, and we hadn't ruled touchdown. There's no yelling required for him to know it's his call to make, and if he has to guess, so be it.

The bottom line is the wings need to hustle and do their job, but the umpire has to be ready to make a quick call if we don't.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by prosec34

As a wing, you have to set up close to the nearest end on this play, and come in hard if it's going up the middle.

Great advice if you want someone to beat you to the pylon. Wings, stay wide where you belong.

[parepat]

I'll give you a little more information on the original post. The film shows the line judge running in to a spot. Once he gets to this spot he yells that he does not have the ball. He admits he has no spot. The puzzling thing was that he never leaves this spot during the entire episode. He leans over and tries to talk to the umpire. I believe the umpire thought the ball was in a pile at the goal line; but. it was behind him. The back judge stood at the back of the end zone and never speaks a word. The linesman is never seen in the film and verified that he did not see the ball. The Referee spoke to the umpire but no one else. For about the last 15 seconds prior to waving it off, he stands by himself with a, "I think I'm gonna be sick" look on his face. The crew never got together in any way shape or form.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by parepat

I'll give you a little more information on the original post. The film shows the line judge running in to a spot. Once he gets to this spot he yells that he does not have the ball. He admits he has no spot. The puzzling thing was that he never leaves this spot during the entire episode. He leans over and tries to talk to the umpire. I believe the umpire thought the ball was in a pile at the goal line; but. it was behind him. The back judge stood at the back of the end zone and never speaks a word. The linesman is never seen in the film and verified that he did not see the ball. The Referee spoke to the umpire but no one else. For about the last 15 seconds prior to waving it off, he stands by himself with a, "I think I'm gonna be sick" look on his face. The crew never got together in any way shape or form.

REPLY: Bad time for the back judge to go "stationary" and "mute" on the crew...

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

If the Team A coach asked you where (on what yardline) the ball became dead, what would you tell him??

In the endzone where we found team A player possessing the ball.

[umpjeremy]

In Kansas they are pushing extremely hard that on every play and every down the wings stay on the sidelines. On a try where it's going to obviously be for two, my BJ is going to be at the back of the endzone opposite me, the Umpire. So if I'm lined up right side 5 yards off the los, he's going to be left side at the back of the ez. My wings are way out of position to make a call. This will probably be one of those where I'll turn to my wings and just give a subtle thumbs up for seeing the ball cross in clean hands. I won't throw up the signal just hold my thumb up or down in front of me and turn so that one or the other can see my signal.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by umpjeremy

In Kansas they are pushing extremely hard that on every play and every down the wings stay on the sidelines. On a try where it's going to obviously be for two, my BJ is going to be at the back of the endzone opposite me, the Umpire. So if I'm lined up right side 5 yards off the los, he's going to be left side at the back of the ez. My wings are way out of position to make a call. This will probably be one of those where I'll turn to my wings and just give a subtle thumbs up for seeing the ball cross in clean hands. I won't throw up the signal just hold my thumb up or down in front of me and turn so that one or the other can see my signal.

We've done it this way every year since I started 8 years ago and it works just fine. Most of the time it is very obvious that the runner got into the end zone. Otherwise the wings come running in at the half yard line until they find the ball and give their signal (short or TD). The umpire can definitely help if he knows for sure the ball got in but the signal should still be the wing. It may take some getting used to but it does work and looks much better.

[trocared]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: In reading through the thread, no one has said to rule the try unsuccessful. For those that might be thinking that, but have not posted, answer this simple rhetorical question: If the Team A coach asked you where (on what yardline) the ball became dead, what would you tell him??

no speakie englisse

[The Cynic]

Alright guys... here is the infamous play. Parepat has provided most of the details correctly with an exception or two. You will see the back judge run in (not just stand there), but he never locates the ball carrier.

I am curious... do you think he gets in or not?

When you click on the link, you will find that the quality is bad but underneath the video is an option to "watch in high quality", sometimes it will let you do that and other times it won't. Either way, watch #21 get up in the endzone and the officials' handling of the situation.

I hope it is something that everyone can learn from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9V7aRFLYc

[Jim D]

The LJ comes in to mark a spot, although, according to the posts, he didn't have one. The BJ comes up, but then he takes root so two of the crew are firmly holding their spots although they have no reason to do so. They won't come over to the R to talk, but he won't come to them either. Although there was a lot of confusion, they seem content to discuss this at a distance with the teams right in the middle of the discussion. This crew looked like they didn't even try to get this right.

[ajmc]

After looking at the u-tube video several times, it appears the ball carrier #21goes into a pile, and the pile goes down, after which #21 resurfaces in the EZ. Without knowing what was being said between the two wing men, who were obviously talking to each other, it's hard to know what was being discussed.

Based on the results of the play, it appears at least one of them had him down before the goal line. The fact that neither left where they were standing, suggests where they were standing was the spot, which was shy of the goal line. If anything one, or both wing officials, should have "sold" their spot a lot harder.