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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 04:55pm
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What's your ruling?

I posted this on the Fed website. Might as well post it here too...

PLAY: A leads 7-6 with 0:04 remaining in the 4th quarter, 3rd and 5 from A's 20. Team A is illegally in motion at the snap. A11 runs to A's 25 where he fumbles. B10 picks up the loose ball and runs to A's 3 where he is tackled. During B10's run, B8 blocks A3 in the back at A's 4 yardline. Time expires during the down. RULING: ??
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 06:13pm
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I'll take a shot. This is off the cuff wothout looking it up first. It would appear that the "clean hands" rule would apply. In order for B to maintain possession they would have to decline the penalty against A and accept the penalty against themselves. 10 yards from the spot of the foul making it B's ball at the A14. Since a penalty was accepted we must play one untimed down. B takes a knee and it's over. The other option is for B to accept the penalty on A giving A an untimed down from the 25.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 06:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66
I'll take a shot. This is off the cuff wothout looking it up first. It would appear that the "clean hands" rule would apply. In order for B to maintain possession they would have to decline the penalty against A and accept the penalty against themselves. 10 yards from the spot of the foul making it B's ball at the A14. Since a penalty was accepted we must play one untimed down. B takes a knee and it's over. The other option is for B to accept the penalty on A giving A an untimed down from the 25.
REPLY: daggo66...B is trailing in the game so they wouldn't be taking a knee.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 07:06pm
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I believe if, for whatever reason, "B" were to accept A's foul, that would consttitute a double foul and the game would be over.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 07:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc
I believe if, for whatever reason, "B" were to accept A's foul, that would consttitute a double foul and the game would be over.
REPLY: Not true...a double foul requires an untimed down, doesn't it? And why would B want that anyway since they're trailing in the game.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 08:29pm
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Bob,

I'm thinking the same thing as Drago. Since B got the ball with clean hands, they would decline the penalty by A. B would be penalized 10 yards from the 4, making it's 1st and 10 from the 14 with one untimed down to play. B would go for the end zone. BUT since B was in possession of the final play, and they committed the foul, should their be an untimed down?
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 09:06pm
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
I posted this on the Fed website. Might as well post it here too...

PLAY: A leads 7-6 with 0:04 remaining in the 4th quarter, 3rd and 5 from A's 20. Team A is illegally in motion at the snap. A11 runs to A's 25 where he fumbles. B10 picks up the loose ball and runs to A's 3 where he is tackled. During B10's run, B8 blocks A3 in the back at A's 4 yardline. Time expires during the down. RULING: ??
If A is leading, then B wants to prolong the game as long as possible, in order for a chance to win the game. I think that's true in all codes.

CANADIAN RULING:

Since B fouled before any B score (this ruling also works if B did score), they run the risk of A declining the B foul if B were to decline the A illegal motion, thus ending the game.

So, B would have to accept the A foul to prolong the game. A will then accept the B foul. The difference is 5 yards in A's favour, which yields A 1D/10 @ A25, for one untimed down. A would just "take a knee" to win the game, which is something they might not have been able to do in the original play, since that knee might have taken less than 4 seconds, which would give B one more play, in the red zone no less.

Edit: In Canada, a dual minor foul is administered and balanced from the POA of the 1st foul. In this case, it is the P(revious) LS.
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Last edited by JugglingReferee; Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:00pm.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 09:17pm
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10-2-2 . . . If each team fouls during a down in which there is a change of team
possession and the play does not have a post-scrimmage kick foul, the team last
gaining possession may retain the ball, provided:
a. the foul by the team last gaining possession is not prior to the final change
of possession, and
b. the team last gaining possession declines the penalty for its opponent’s
foul(s), other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul. In this case, the team that was not last in possession has no penalty options until the team last in possession has made its penalty decision on the fouls prior to the change of possession. After that decision by the team last in possession, the team not last in possession may decline or accept the foul by the team last in possession or choose which foul to have enforced in the case that the team last in possession committed more than one foul following the change.

B gets to decline A's penalty then A gets to decline B's penalty, game over.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 09:24pm
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REPLY: Well...someone has seen the 2008 rule book...
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 12:49am
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Ah ha they clarified the wording for this year. I had not realized that. Great news.
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 05:59am
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First, reading for comprehension helps, a lot. Second, I knew it was't as simple as it looked, otherwise Bob wouldn't have posted it, but I knew I would learn something by giving it a shot. Thanks Bob.
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 08:58am
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REPLY: OK, the correct answer in 2008 is...game over, go home. It's a rule change that's not really listed as such. It's listed as an editorial change.

Actually, a little history is in order...Last year the Fed changed the wording of this rule. They listed it as an 'editorial' change rather than a rule change. It sounded a bit like they were attempting to make it so that there was no requirement that B's foul must be enforced. A would have the option of declining (like the NCAA rule). However, the wording was so convoluted that you really couldn't tell for sure what the rule was intending. When pushed on it last year, the Fed said that there was no rule change intended (just an editorial change) and that we should handle it the same way we had in the past, i.e. enforce the penalty for B's foul regardless. Now...this season, they changed the wording again, and now it's quite clear that after B decides what he wants to do regarding A's foul, A gets to do the same for B's foul. That's why the answer to the posted play is that the game is over. Clearly, A will decline the penalty and won't allow B to have the untimed down they would get if A had accepted the penalty. No accepted penalties with an expired clock...game over. And, the Fed actually changed a case play (10.2.2 Situation C) to demonstrates that point. However, strangely enough, they still list it as an editorial change when it's anything but editorial. It's a substantive rule change and this play proves it.

As one person pointed out though, if B knows this rule and more importantly could anticipate A's response if he were to decline the penalty for A's motion foul, he might very well accept the penalty for A's motion foul and create a double foul since that's the only way he could squeeze another play out of the game. Otherwise, game over--he loses.
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Last edited by Bob M.; Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:08am.
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 11:25am
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NCAA: Extend the period if B accepts the choice of enforcing their penalty and declining A's. Ball is put in play at the A14 on an untimed down. Likely a field goal will be attempted. There's no change in Team A options that I am aware of. They can decline Team B's foul, but that would put the ball at the 3 and we'd still have an untimed down.

This is one of those weird rules where B actually helped itself by committing a foul. Had they not committed one, the only way to extend the period was to give A back the ball and accept their foul. NCAA needs to rethink offsetting fouls.
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
NCAA: Extend the period if B accepts the choice of enforcing their penalty and declining A's. Ball is put in play at the A14 on an untimed down. Likely a field goal will be attempted. There's no change in Team A options that I am aware of. They can decline Team B's foul, but that would put the ball at the 3 and we'd still have an untimed down.

This is one of those weird rules where B actually helped itself by committing a foul. Had they not committed one, the only way to extend the period was to give A back the ball and accept their foul. NCAA needs to rethink offsetting fouls.
REPLY: I know you're talking NCAA rules here, but if B declines the penalty for A's motion 's foul and then A declines the penalty for B's IBB, why are you saying there would be an untimed down? This would not be offsetting fouls, but rather a situation where there are no accepted penalties. The game would end, wouldn't it? This situation is the first exception to NCAA 10-1-4 which describes offsetting fouls.

Also, my original post was related to Federation rules where there is a 2008 change to this situation where Fed rules now coincide with NCAA. You're correct that there is no change to the NCAA rule for this situation.
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 11:55am
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Are we sure

Aggie,
If any penalty can be declined, and it can. What would be the reason for extending the period if indeed A and B both declined the penalties, B for obvious reasons, A for good reason just not so obvious. The rule for extending the period in the NCAA is very explicit that a penalty must be accepted. It also says in the penalty enforcement area that any penalty can be declined. I do agree however that the language in 10-4-1 doesn't appear to give A the option to decline their penalty, but I would think that it is just because this is most likely the only case where A would decline the penalty.
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