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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 03:09pm
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A Challenge!

Does anyone wish to explain NFHS penalty application to me?

Ie... that "all-but-one" principle?

Maybe there's a document out there?
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 04:17pm
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all but one

in a nutshell. All live ball fouls except 1 are enforced from the basic spot. That one foul that is not enforced from the basic spot is a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot.

The basic spot for a running play is the end of the run
The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot (usually limited to free kicks and pass plays)
The basic spot for a PSK enforcement is the end of the kick.

There is 1 notable exception. Roughing the passer is tacked on to the end of the run even though it occurs during a loose ball play.

These are the basics of the all but one principle

so endeth the lesson LOL
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 06:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmathews
These are the basics of the all but one principle
That's a lot better than what I had. I thought the all-but-one meant everyone understood it but me.
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Old Thu Jun 26, 2008, 09:00am
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The above summary sounds great. In layman's terms you might consider; when the offense fouls behind the basic spot (whichever one that is) they didn't earn getting to that basic spot, without the benefit of that foul, so they're only entitled to where they reached, before they fouled, which would be the spot of the foul.
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Old Thu Jun 26, 2008, 10:04am
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REPLY:JR...I realize that cmathews and ajmc both gave very good descriptions. And I absolutely love SC Ump's description. I might use that in training sessions. Thought I'd just try it a slightly different way to see if I could help.

Enforcement of live ball fouls hinges on something referred to as the “all-but-one” principle. It based upon the fundamental principles that (1) no team should benefit from committing a foul, and (2) a team that fouls during a down should be entitled to whatever benefit (yardage, for example) they might have achieved legally prior to committing their foul(s), but nothing more. The "all-but-one" principle provides the best (though not perfect) means for doing that.


“All-but-one” Principle
The “all-but-one” principle determines the actual spot of enforcement and is based upon knowing WHO committed the foul (offense or defense) and WHERE the foul was committed relative to the basic spot of enforcement. Here’s what it says:


If the foul was by….…and it occurred........................then enforce the penalty from…
the Defense...................Beyond the Basic Spot..............the Basic Spot
the Defense...................Behind the Basic Spot...............the Basic Spot
the Offense...................Beyond the Basic Spot...............the Basic Spot
the Offense...................Behind the Basic Spot................the Spot of the Foul

So, all situations except one are enforced from the basic spot, hence the name “all-but-one.” The lone exception is a foul by the offense that occurs behind the basic spot. Such a foul will be enforced from the spot of the foul. For that reason, such a foul is often referred to as a “spot foul.” That’s why it’s important that on player fouls, your flag is not just thrown into the air, but rather is thrown directly to the spot of the foul or at least dropped on the yard line where the foul occurs.
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Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 10:51am
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Sometimes used example is whatever helps them/hurts them the most. This is not a perfect example, as there are times where the opposite happens. But for the most part, it works. CIP; running play, A clips, runner goes 30 yds. You wouldn't subtract it from the end of the run; hit them where it hurts the most - the spot of the foul. The only time this doesn't work is on a pass play where B fouls (hold, BIB) and the pass is made over 10 yds. PS is the LOS, so either take the penalty or decline, it's still usually a 1st down. Only exception is if it was down and +10 yds. Then, you get to replay the down. So there are not perfect templates, but game knowledge comes into play alot. Give it time; it took me a long time to get the hang of it as well. Once you do, it all clicks!
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Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 11:58am
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REPLY: No offense a4caster, but I cringe whenever I hear someone recommend usng a "Hit them where it hurts the most" philosophy as a shortcut to proper application of the all-but-one philosophy. Consider:

Play 1: A22 runs to B's 45 where he is tackled. B12 commits a personal foul during the run at B's 40.

Play 2: A, 3-10 from midfield. Back A2 fumbles at A's 45. While the ball is rolling loose, guard A65 holds at A's 48. A13 recovers and is down at A's 40.

Play 3: During a scrimmage kick, R15 holds downfield at R's 30. R22 fields the punt at R's 20 near the far sideline. He circles back toward the opposite side of the field where he's tackled at R's 15.

In all three of these cases, someone following the "Hit them where it hurts the most" philosophy would invariably get it wrong.
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Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 04:54pm
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Very true, and that is why I said that it wasn't a perfect fit, but a large part of the time, it does help get things done. But, I see where you are coming from that if someone does not learn the correct way, they will never learn the correct way.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 09:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a4caster
Very true, and that is why I said that it wasn't a perfect fit, but a large part of the time, it does help get things done. But, I see where you are coming from that if someone does not learn the correct way, they will never learn the correct way.
REPLY: Precisely my point...if they rely on the shortcut and never learn the correct application, they'll get things wrong.
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Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 10:24am
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Thanks to all.
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Old Wed Jul 02, 2008, 11:02am
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I've also heard the "all but one" referred to as the "3 and 1". If you hear someone say the 3 and 1 you'll be in the know.
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Old Fri Aug 22, 2008, 10:25am
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Is the all-but-one principle the same for each of the NFL, NCAA, and NFHS?

Are there any differences between the codes? I know that the NFL has exception after exception in penalty enforcement, so perhaps the Fed and college are exactly the same, or very close in penalty administration?
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Old Fri Aug 22, 2008, 11:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Is the all-but-one principle the same for each of the NFL, NCAA, and NFHS?

Are there any differences between the codes? I know that the NFL has exception after exception in penalty enforcement, so perhaps the Fed and college are exactly the same, or very close in penalty administration?
No, they are different. The #1 example which is on TV in every NCAA game is holding by the offense on a pass play. A75 holds 5 yards behind the LOS and the pass is incomplete. In NCAA the penalty is enforced from the previous spot while NF enforces it from the spot of the foul.

NCAA Basic Spot
ARTICLE 10. When “basic spot’’ is stated in a penalty, fouls during a
running play, a legal pass play or a legal kick play are penalized from
the “basic spot.’’ Fouls by the offensive team behind the “basic spot’’ are
enforced from the spot of the foul.
The following are the basic spots for enforcement on running plays,
forward pass plays and legal kick plays:

a. The basic spot on running plays when the run ends beyond the neutral
zone is the spot where the related run ends, and fouls by the offensive
team behind the basic spot are spot fouls (Rules 2-30-4 and 10-2-2-c-1)
(Exceptions: Offensive team facemask, illegal use of hands, holding,
illegal block and personal fouls, behind the neutral zone, are enforced
from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s goal
line).

b. The basic spot on running plays when the run ends behind the neutral
zone is the previous spot, and fouls by the offensive team behind the
basic spot are spot fouls (Rules 2-30-4 and 10-2-2-c-2) (Exceptions:
RULE 2-25 / DEFINITIONS FR -55
Offensive team facemask, illegal use of hands, holding, illegal block
and personal fouls, behind the neutral zone, are enforced from the
previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s goal line).

c. The basic spot on running plays that occur when there is no neutral zone
(interception runbacks, kick runbacks, fumble advances, etc.) is the spot
where the related run ends, and fouls by the offensive team behind the
basic spot are spot fouls (Rules 2-30-4 and 10-2-2-c-3) (Exceptions:
Rule 8-5-1 Exceptions).

d. The basic spot on legal forward pass plays is the previous spot, and fouls
by the offensive team behind the basic spot are spot fouls (Rules 2-30-1
and 10-2-2-d).

Exceptions:
1. Defensive pass interference may be a spot foul.
2. Enforce roughing the passer on a completed forward pass from the
end of the last run when it ends beyond the neutral zone and there is
no change of team possession during the down (A.R. 2-30-4-I and
II).
3. Enforce illegal-touching fouls from the previous spot.
4. Enforce offensive team facemask, illegal use of hands, holding,
illegal block and personal fouls, behind the neutral zone, from the
previous spot (Exception: Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s
goal line).

e. The basic spot on legal kick plays before a change of possession is the
previous spot, and fouls by the offensive team behind the basic spot are
spot fouls (Exceptions: Offensive team facemask, illegal use of hands,
holding, illegal block and personal fouls, behind the neutral zone, are
enforced from the previous spot. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team
A’s goal line) (Rules 2-30-2 and 3 and 10-2-2-e) (Rule 9-1-4-b on
scrimmage kicks).
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Old Fri Aug 22, 2008, 01:46pm
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Hit them where it hurts the most

Works for offensive fouls..doesn't it?

Granted ABO doesn't hit the Defense, where it hurts them the most.
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Old Fri Aug 22, 2008, 02:11pm
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Assuming that the original poster was working with FED rules, do you see what you guys have done? You've made it more confusing.

For me, CMathews has the best explanation because of its simplicity. I like to think in those terms and not work with "shortcuts."
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