Can the ball be snapped from a spot exactly ON goalline?

[Barcelona]

I mean a situation, where the most forward point is in the field, but the rear part of the ball is on or behind goalline.

Possible scenarios, how to achieve that could be as follows:
-punt/interception is caught deep in the endzone, runner tries to run out, but is tackled so, that most forward point of the ball is at "on-inch-line", but rest of the ball is in the endzone (touch what matters? That most forward point and R´s ball from 1-in or is it a touchback?)
-Team A snaps from very close to own endzone and commits (multiple) penalty, which means half the distance. But what distance is halved? Goalline to most forward point of the ball (what would move the rear part of the ball on the goalline) - or - goalline to the "end" of the ball?
-Team A on fourth and goal is stopped inch(es) short. From what spot will Team B snap the ball? Exactly where left by Team A (because of turnover, the most forward point will move one foot closer to Team A´s and zone) or is the ball turned around the most forward point (and part of the ball will be placed on the goalline)?

Thank you for help

[JasonTX]

If any part of the ball is touching the goalline when the ball becomes dead you either have a safety, touchback, or touchdown. To avoid a safety the team must get the entire football out of the end zone.

[ljdave]

I don't have my books next to me, but there is a clause in the Fed. rules that says that in this situation, the referee shall place the ball so that the tail end of the ball is not penetrating the goal line.

As for your scenario where there is a turnover on downs, the ball is to be placed exactly where it was at the start of fourth down and the l.o.s. moves from one end of the ball to the other on the change of possession.

[Barcelona]

JasonTX - well, but in scenarios two and three, the ball is dead "outside" goalline. It is moved there by officials. And my question is, whether those moves are OK (and for example also what point of the ball should be halved - sure no matter which it is, where previous spot is on 9-yard-line, but becomes important when dealing with inches)

ljdave - yes, that is actually what I was "asking". But I was writing (or better said thinking about NCAA rules and there is nothing like that (at least not written, may be that the sense is same). And thanks for answer regarding third scenario (well, if right and under NCAA rules

[MJT]

NCAA is no different than NF. The entire ball must get out of the EZ to not have a safety or TB.

The forward point of the ball can never touch the GL in multiple foul penalties that are 1/2 the distance penalties and the front part of the ball can never be touching the GL.

If the ball is snapped on 4th down from the one inch line and there is an incomplete pass, the ball will be placed so the back end of the ball is just outside the GL. That would be different than in other 4th down incomplete forward pass plays in which the ball is placed in the same location and the forward point of the ball now becomes the rear point of the ball.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Barcelona

Can the ball be snapped from a spot exactly ON goalline?

I mean a situation, where the most forward point is in the field, but the rear part of the ball is on or behind goalline.

Possible scenarios, how to achieve that could be as follows:

1. punt/interception is caught deep in the endzone, runner tries to run out, but is tackled so, that most forward point of the ball is at "on-inch-line", but rest of the ball is in the endzone (touch what matters? That most forward point and R´s ball from 1-in or is it a touchback?)
2. Team A snaps from very close to own endzone and commits (multiple) penalty, which means half the distance. But what distance is halved? Goalline to most forward point of the ball (what would move the rear part of the ball on the goalline) - or - goalline to the "end" of the ball?
3. Team A on fourth and goal is stopped inch(es) short. From what spot will Team B snap the ball? Exactly where left by Team A (because of turnover, the most forward point will move one foot closer to Team A´s and zone) or is the ball turned around the most forward point (and part of the ball will be placed on the goalline)?

Thank you for help

CANADIAN RULING:

No.

We do not scrimmage inside the 1 yard line. Forward progress cannot award a TD because of the rotation of the ball. If any part of the ball is in the EZ, the ball has EZ status.

1. This would be a tackle in the EZ, which is a rouge. Award 1 point for the kicking team and B scrimmages 1D/10 @ B-35.
2. If the LS is outside the 1 and A commits a foul applied from the LS, half the distance can only take the ball to their own 1 yard line. Subsequent A fouls is a loss of down on 1D or 2D. On 3D, there is essentially no penalty as A gets to repeat the down. We do not initiate a turnover on this play.
3. Since we won't allow B to snap from within the 1 yard line after the COP, B will scrimmage 1D/10 A B-1.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by Barcelona

JasonTX - well, but in scenarios two and three, the ball is dead "outside" goalline. It is moved there by officials. And my question is, whether those moves are OK (and for example also what point of the ball should be halved - sure no matter which it is, where previous spot is on 9-yard-line, but becomes important when dealing with inches)

ljdave - yes, that is actually what I was "asking". But I was writing (or better said thinking about NCAA rules and there is nothing like that (at least not written, may be that the sense is same). And thanks for answer regarding third scenario (well, if right and under NCAA rules

Now you're trying to get this into rocket science. When marking off a penalty the distance that is being halved would depend upon which direction we are going to enforce the penalty. If going backwards toward your own goalline then logic (it's not written) would have us use the back of the ball since using the front part may put the ball into the end zone, which can't happen and then if we are going toward the opponents goalline we'd use the front part. Now there is a rule under unfair acts: If a team repeatedly commits fouls that can be penalized only by halving the distance to its goalline. The penalty is: The referee may take any action he deems equitable, including assessing a penalty, awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game. I have never heard of a game reaching that point and I can guarantee you that you will probably never see it get to that point. We're going to move the ball even if it's just a 1/32 of an inch

On situation 3 the ball will be placed in the spot where it becomes dead and then the chains would move to the "new" forward part of the ball.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ljdave

I don't have my books next to me, but there is a clause in the Fed. rules that says that in this situation, the referee shall place the ball so that the tail end of the ball is not penetrating the goal line.

As for your scenario where there is a turnover on downs, the ball is to be placed exactly where it was at the start of fourth down and the l.o.s. moves from one end of the ball to the other on the change of possession.

Dave, either not comprehending what you wrote or one of us is wrong. You say "in this situation", which seems to imply that in "other" situations the ball would be moved following a loss of possession on downs.

Am I reading you correctly?

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by Barcelona

I mean a situation, where the most forward point is in the field, but the rear part of the ball is on or behind goalline.

Possible scenarios, how to achieve that could be as follows:
-punt/interception is caught deep in the endzone, runner tries to run out, but is tackled so, that most forward point of the ball is at "on-inch-line", but rest of the ball is in the endzone (touch what matters? That most forward point and R´s ball from 1-in or is it a touchback?)

since the ball is not 100% out of the EZ... this is a TB.

-Team A snaps from very close to own endzone and commits (multiple) penalty, which means half the distance. But what distance is halved? Goalline to most forward point of the ball (what would move the rear part of the ball on the goalline) - or - goalline to the "end" of the ball?

the distance is from the nose of the ball to the goal line.. however, the ball (the rear end) would never be placed so that it is breaking the plane of the goal line. Not written this way but we officials would never allow this.[/quote]

-Team A on fourth and goal is stopped inch(es) short. From what spot will Team B snap the ball? Exactly where left by Team A (because of turnover, the most forward point will move one foot closer to Team A´s and zone) or is the ball turned around the most forward point (and part of the ball will be placed on the goalline)?

Place the ball exactly where it is declared dead or the exact spot it was snapped from should this have been an incomplete pass. Then, move the down box to the front of the ball, (the going "out" point). The new team-A essentially gained the lenght of the football.

Thank you for help

[ljdave]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Dave, either not comprehending what you wrote or one of us is wrong. You say "in this situation", which seems to imply that in "other" situations the ball would be moved following a loss of possession on downs.

Am I reading you correctly?

I think you took "in this situation" from my first paragraph to imply meaning in my second paragraph. Let me be clear: On any change of possession, the ball is to be placed where the ball was when the runner's knee, hip, elbow, etc. touches the ground. The LOS is later determined by which direction we are going.
Similar to our example, Team A going in on 4th and goal from the 2-inch line throws an incomplete pass. We as officials have to place the ball exactly where it was, and the HL/U moves the LOS the length of the football. If we didn't have this rule, and instead kept the same LOS, the ball would flip over the line and part of the ball would be in the endzone. This is the meaning for the rule. The ball goes where the ball goes, and the chain crew lines up accordingly on a change of possession. Hope that clears it up........

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

If the ball is snapped on 4th down from the one inch line and there is an incomplete pass, the ball will be placed so the back end of the ball is just outside the GL. That would be different than in other 4th down incomplete forward pass plays in which the ball is placed in the same location and the forward point of the ball now becomes the rear point of the ball.

I wonder if I had anything to do with the adoption of this. In 1980 I sat down with Brice Durbin at Fed HQ in Kansas City and pointed out what could happen in the 4th down incomplete pass scenario. He said that's why they instructed their officials to always put the ball as described above, regardless of the down. The rule book was silent on the matter.

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I wonder if I had anything to do with the adoption of this. In 1980 I sat down with Brice Durbin at Fed HQ in Kansas City and pointed out what could happen in the 4th down incomplete pass scenario. He said that's why they instructed their officials to always put the ball as described above, regardless of the down. The rule book was silent on the matter.

Robert

Certainly you know about the Canadian mechanic of on a turnover via incomplete pass, the ball is rotated so that the line of scrimmage (not the width of scrimmage) remains unchanged.

Just wondering...

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ljdave

I think you took "in this situation" from my first paragraph to imply meaning in my second paragraph. Let me be clear: On any change of possession, the ball is to be placed where the ball was when the runner's knee, hip, elbow, etc. touches the ground. The LOS is later determined by which direction we are going.
Similar to our example, Team A going in on 4th and goal from the 2-inch line throws an incomplete pass. We as officials have to place the ball exactly where it was, and the HL/U moves the LOS the length of the football. If we didn't have this rule, and instead kept the same LOS, the ball would flip over the line and part of the ball would be in the endzone. This is the meaning for the rule. The ball goes where the ball goes, and the chain crew lines up accordingly on a change of possession. Hope that clears it up........

I'm happy to hear that you got it right.

[Barcelona]

Thanks for all messages.
I know, that I took it mad, but non-mad things are written in rulebook:-) and this was (well, without no.1) just about experience and "conventions"