Foul by B

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

I don't think that your enforcements are right here. Aren't the enforcement spots in both of these scenarios the End of A's Run? In both scenarios the "run" ends at the A25.

Don't we have 2nd & 30 for A @ A30, or did I miss something?

[DJ_NV]

Suudy's enforcements are correct in NF. In a) this is a running play so the end of the run is where A is tackled (the A25). Tack on 15 yards for the FM and repeat the down and you're back to where you started 2/20 @ A-40.

In b) this is loose-ball play, because we have a fumble (doesn't have to be a fumble, it could be any type of loose ball except an illegal forward passe.g. fumble, back. pass, any kick--legal or illegal--or a legal forward pass).

so therefore the BS is the previous spot, enforce 15 from the PS and it's 2/5 @ B-45.

Remember that before a COP, any runs (1 run or 50 runs) as long as any and all are followed by a loose ball (except an illegal FP) then all of the runs get rolled up into one and only one loose-ball play. Here is the key: The run has to end behind the NZ. Always, always, always... in order for this to be considered loose-ball play.

You could even have a run beyond the LOS, a fumble beyond the LOS, then have A recover and run the ball back behind the LOS and fumble it there and it's still loose-ball play because you had a run the ended behind the NZ before a COP. All of that nonsense gets wrapped up into one crazy loose-ball play.

So you ask yourself, why don't offensive players deliberately pass the ball backward behind the NZ if B fouls for sure, i.e. a quarterback getting tackled by the face mask on a sack? Seems to make sense, they get "free" penalty yardage as opposed to if he got tackled in possession of the ball. Realistically, very few coaches or players if any will have their wits about them in the situation to know to do this, plus the risk of doing so strategically, etc... In other words, probably not going to be the best decision from a player/coach standpoint especially when they're going to get the down over.

So then you ask yourself, why doesn't the Fed change the rule so that this isn't even an option? The NCAA has this. The basic spot for a running-play that ends behind the LOS is the previous spot. (Runs that end beyond the NZ and runs that end after a COP are still enforced from the EOR). With this enforcement, the defense doesn't get 'free' yardage because of their foul (sack for a 20 yd. loss even with a 5 yard FM is still a net loss of 15 yard for A even with a repeat of the down)



The reason the Fed will not change this rule is that they feel that the benefits of not having an exception to penalty enforcement and therefore giving away occasional 'free' yardage to B greatly outweigh the potential drawbacks of incorrectly enforcing fouls and having yet another 'exception'.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by Suudy
Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

Originally Posted by refbuz

I don't think that your enforcements are right here. Aren't the enforcement spots in both of these scenarios the End of A's Run? In both scenarios the "run" ends at the A25.

Don't we have 2nd & 30 for A @ A30, or did I miss something?

You're right, enforcement spot for both is A25. Suudy is calling a 15 yarder on the FM for "pulling" so it would be 2nd and 20.

In sitch B, Suudy is mistaken a loose ball for a loose ball play.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Suudy

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

Originally Posted by CO ump

In sitch B, Suudy is mistaken a loose ball for a loose ball play.

Can you clarify? Why isn't sit b) a loose ball play?

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Can you clarify? Why isn't sit b) a loose ball play?

I'm sorry I don't have my books to give references but in general NFHS "loose ball plays" are legal forward pass, scrimmage kick and free kick plays. All other plays are running plays. A fumble on a running play does not change the enforcement spot from end of run(running plays) to previous spot(loose ball plays). That's why be bag the spot of a fumble, to mark the end of the run, that becomes the enforcement spot. (I'm speaking in generalities, not covering all possible exceptions)

1st and 10 from A40. A10 drops back, scrambles, runs to A45 then throws a complete forward pass to A80 to B40.

If this was a "loose ball play" then enforcement of IFP would be the previous spot or A40. But this is a running play therefore enforcement is from A45. (end of run) Just like Sit b

Fumbles, IFP and backward passes do not constitute "loose ball plays" only loose balls.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by CO ump

A fumble on a running play does not change the enforcement spot from end of run(running plays) to previous spot(loose ball plays). That's why be bag the spot of a fumble, to mark the end of the run, that becomes the enforcement spot.

Only if the spot of the fumble is beyond the NZ.

Originally Posted by CO ump

If this was a "loose ball play" then enforcement of IFP would be the previous spot or A40. But this is a running play therefore enforcement is from A45. (end of run) Just like Sit b

Sit b) was behind the NZ.

Originally Posted by CO ump

Fumbles, IFP and backward passes do not constitute "loose ball plays" only loose balls.

Fumbles and backward passes can be loose ball plays, if they occur behind the NZ. According to 2-33-1c:

Art 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

In sit b), it was a fumble behind the neutral zone prior to a change of possession, thus it was a loose ball play. In my situation, I was specifically targeting a loose ball behind the NZ, thus the previous spot enforcement.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by CO ump

Originally Posted by Suudy



You're right, enforcement spot for both is A25. Suudy is calling a 15 yarder on the FM for "pulling" so it would be 2nd and 20.

In sitch B, Suudy is mistaken a loose ball for a loose ball play.

I got some clarification on B at my meeting last night. Since A fumbled behind the LOS the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot, not the end of the run like I said earlier.

There's also no need to bag the fumble in this situation since it is not an enforcement spot.