Question Regarding End of Down

[TNStripes]

NFHS Rules - A runner in possession of the ball in his right hand stumbles, places his left hand on the ground and the ball on the ground still in his right to keep from falling to the ground and then continues to run for 5 yards before being tackled. Where is the play dead and where is the ball spotted.

[jaybird]

Where is the play dead and where is the ball spotted.

Where he was tackled.

[TNStripes]

Rule or case play?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by TNStripes

NFHS Rules - A runner in possession of the ball in his right hand stumbles, places his left hand on the ground and the ball on the ground still in his right to keep from falling to the ground and then continues to run for 5 yards before being tackled. Where is the play dead and where is the ball spotted.

CANADIAN RULING:

Under Canadian rules, and in this case, forward progress is where the ball is when the ball carrier's knees or otherwise whole body touches the ground. The hand touching the ground does not end the play or assign a final forward progress. Also, the ball can hit the ground in this case, without it meaning anything.

[waltjp]

FED 4-2-2 The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

a. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand of foot to touch the ground.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by TNStripes

NFHS Rules - A runner in possession of the ball in his right hand stumbles, places his left hand on the ground and the ball on the ground still in his right to keep from falling to the ground and then continues to run for 5 yards before being tackled. Where is the play dead and where is the ball spotted.

see subject

[PaulJak]

w_sohl,

Why is he down where the ball contacted the ground? Can you cite a rule for us?

4-2-2-a states: When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground. Exceptions are listed for a holder during a kick.

There are other reasons for the ball to become dead, but they don't deal with a runner provided in this play his helmet doesn't come completely off at the same time he touches the ground with the ball (passes, loose ball, simultaneous possesion, inadvertant whistle)

In this play, no other part of his person has touched the ground, so this remains a live ball until he is down by rule.

Paul

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

NFHS: He is down where the ball contacted the ground.

So you believe that the ball contacting the ground causes it to be down. If that is the case, how does a player ever advance a fumble?

[TNStripes]

In this play the ball is in control of a player not as a loose ball (fumble), picked up and advanced. The old rule of thumb is "the ground cannot cause a fumble." So what is the difference in a player falling, ball making contact first, and squirting out and this situation where a player in control places the ball on the ground to regain composure and being able to advance. I am told this happened in a TN - ARk game several years ago and the player lost the ball and it has ruled a fumble when recovered.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by TNStripes

In this play the ball is in control of a player not as a loose ball (fumble), picked up and advanced. The old rule of thumb is "the ground cannot cause a fumble." So what is the difference in a player falling, ball making contact first, and squirting out and this situation where a player in control places the ball on the ground to regain composure and being able to advance. I am told this happened in a TN - ARk game several years ago and the player lost the ball and it has ruled a fumble when recovered.

The "rule of thumb" that you cite, which doesn't have a real rule reference, pertains to a runner holding the ball in a "normal" manner - it is cradled in his arm. The implication is that when he hits the ground, the arm also hits the ground and therefore something other than his hands and feet have touched making the ball dead.

As you've indicated, if you can clearly see the ball contacting before any other part of the body, the ground can absolutely cause a fumble. If a player puts the ball down, in his hand, to regain his balance and the ball comes out its a fumble.

[raiderfan]

I had a play this year. High School. 2nd and 7 yards. A1 running and drops the ball after gaining 4 yards. B1 tries to pick it up { sort of like palming a basketball }and run ,only he is spragging the ball on the ground. His right hand ends up pushing the ball into the turf while he tries to stop his forward motion. He gains control of his feet and begins to pick up the football. Gets it off the ground and smash... A & B players have caught up with the play and the ball is loose on the ground. A2 is sprawled on the ground , reaches out and pulls the ball underneath. I blow the whistle and mark the spot where A2 has the ball. As it turned out , the line to gain was crossed and A team gets the 1st down. During post game , one of the crew asks about this play and if the line to gain is not crossed,would it be 3rd down or would A be given a new set of downs because B possessed the ball, then lost it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by raiderfan

would it be 3rd down or would A be given a new set of downs because B possessed the ball, then lost it.

That's why we are paid. Use the rules, approved rulings, and your experience to rule accordingly.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

see subject

Simply not true.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by TNStripes

The old rule of thumb is "the ground cannot cause a fumble."

This is not a rule of thumb ... it's a Maddenism, and not a true statement at all.

[rdfox]

Everything here comes down to possession, which uses the key words "held or controlled" in its definition (2-34-1). The definition of a loose-ball recovery includes the word "possession", so it always comes back to the official's judgment as to whether the ball was possessed...i.e. either held or controlled. By including the word "controlled" separate from the word "held" and the conjunction "or", the NF thus allows a possession of a ball without it necessarily being held.