Illegal Motion vs False Start

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I read your word document on motion vs shift and it has cleared it up for me. So, if the lineman goes from 2 point to 3 point and doesn't make it to the ground when the ball is snapped, it's illegal motion. If he makes it to the ground and 1 second hasn't elapsed before the snap, it's an illegal shift, right?

Scott

REPLY: Yes...that's how I read it anyway. Technically, at least.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ABO77

...In other words...one player alone (shifting) cannot cause an illegal shift.

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

REPLY: ABO...I don't quite follow. If everyone is set and the QB steps to the snapper and sets, after which the snap occurs immediately (less than one second later), I contend you have an illegal shift. One player has caused this illegal shift. In NCAA, you'd be correct because their definition of a shift is different than the Fed's.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

Am I missing something in your post?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ABO77

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

Um ... illegal motion is USUALLY more than 1 player. What else do you call 2 men in motion at the snap?

[ABO77]

Bob Im still trying to understand the QB exception if there is one for Fed...Ill look it up.

And yes two players in motion is Illegal motion, but I think its an illegal shift too. I would of just called this an Illegal shift.

My last post definitely had some holes in it.

[BoBo]

For bringing this up.

The gist of all this from my end was to get an answer as to whether kill the play or let it go and call live ball.

From the responses

Kill the false starts obviously.

The lineman putting his hand down was my grey area.

From the majority here you are saying live ball illegal shift/motion let the play go and see what happens.

OK thanks and sorry for the long discussion

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ABO77

Bob Im still trying to understand the QB exception if there is one for Fed...Ill look it up.

And yes two players in motion is Illegal motion, but I think its an illegal shift too. I would of just called this an Illegal shift.

My last post definitely had some holes in it.

REPLY: I just used the QB play as an example. All I was trying to get at is that the Fed definition of 'shift' involves the movement of one or more players to a new set position. So even if one player moved to a new position and reset, everyone needs to be stopped for that one required second. If the snap goes off less than a second after he sets, you have an illegal shift. NCAA rules are different because their definition of a shift requires two or more players to new set positions. So the play I gave would be legal in an NCAA game.

As for two players in motion, it can only be an illegal shift if:
(a) they began moving less than a second after the rest of their team was set, or
(b) one of them stopped just prior to the snap (in which case it couldn't be illegal motion).

[Bob M.]

REPLY: BoBo...nothing to be sorry for. You asked a good question and generated some discussion. And it seems you got your answer. Good topic.

[LeRoy]

Team A lines up with both slots 1 yard behind the tight ends. One of the slot players starts in motion after taking one step backwards A snaps the ball. Is this Illegal Motion. My first thought was that the player in motion had to be in motion for 1 second. but after looking in the rules book I believe I was wrong. But does A player have to be 5 yards deep before the snap.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

I've alway heard the mantra "one in motion (illegally) one arm, two in motion two arms" for the signa. Thus the description above (two players in motion, parallel to the LOS) is, at least as I've seen it called, an illegal shift.

Hmmm.... Something to bring up at our next meeting.

[ABO77]

Ok, this may of been covered but what do we have in this play...

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

I'm getting a little confused.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ABO77

Ok, this may of been covered but what do we have in this play...

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

I'm getting a little confused.

REPLY: I'd say illegal motion. Since the lineman was still moving, he never completed the shift. Therefore it can't be an illegal shift. However, it he had just completed the shift (reset) and the snap was immediately therafter (less then one second later), it would be an illegal shift.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Suudy

I've alway heard the mantra "one in motion (illegally) one arm, two in motion two arms" for the signa. Thus the description above (two players in motion, parallel to the LOS) is, at least as I've seen it called, an illegal shift.

Hmmm.... Something to bring up at our next meeting.

REPLY: Consider NF 7-2-7:

"ART. 7… Not more than one Team A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent's goal line..."

PENALTY: ... illegal motion (Art. 7)--(S20)

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LeRoy

Team A lines up with both slots 1 yard behind the tight ends. One of the slot players starts in motion after taking one step backwards A snaps the ball. Is this Illegal Motion. My first thought was that the player in motion had to be in motion for 1 second. but after looking in the rules book I believe I was wrong. But does A player have to be 5 yards deep before the snap.

No. There was a time way back when a back in motion had to be at least 5 yards behind his LOS, but now that applies only to a lineman becoming a back without setting. "1 yard behind the tight ends" means a backfield position, so if that player had already set, it's legal. And this "jump motion" is very common by teams using the double wing.

Fed was the last to abolish the "clearly backward" requirement for the MiM, and that was 20+ years ago.

Robert