Illegal Motion vs False Start

[BoBo]

I know there is something similar to this topic right now but wanted everyone to know when they see the title the topic is known, sorry.

I am just curious how everyone sees the difference.

My main reason for this is to see how we should handle these plays. Live Ball or Dead Ball (kill it when it happens)

An "A" player with his hand on the ground lined up as an interior lineman lifts his hand. My interpretation here is a FALSE START

An "A" player with his hands on his knees who is lined up as an interior lineman stands up, rocks back, or rocks forward. My interpretation here is a "FALSE START"(Unless of course it is obvious the lineman is shifting legal to another spot on the line, a whole other discussion)

An "A" Player with his elbows on his knees lined up as an interior lineman is placing or trying to place his hand at the instance the ball is snapped. My interpretation here is a FALSE START

This is how "I" see these plays.

I see False starts as those movements by interior lineman. (I know it is possible for a back to have a false start as well like missing the count and moving forward to soon)

Illegal Motion I view as movement on the backfield players prior to the snap. (i.e. moving forward)

The backs have a chance to reset or go in motion.

I have no rule books in front as of now for this discussion but will shortly and i may and probably will find myself to have some holes in my interpretation.

But feel this is a good topic to discuss.

[MD Longhorn]

I would say, "Please refer to one of the other 20 times we've had this argument here", but people are going to chime in anyway, so it looks like we're having this argument again.

You will find it virtually split down the middle between people that want a back moving early called a false start, and those that want it called illegal motion.

My answer - you know it when you see it, and defense's reaction (or lack thereof) DOES matter.

[MD Longhorn]

Actually ... "An "A" Player with his elbows on his knees lined up as an interior lineman is placing or trying to place his hand at the instance the ball is snapped. My interpretation here is a FALSE START" is not a false start - it's illegal motion. He's not illegal until that ball is snapped, and he didn't simulate the start of the play. You should blow False Starts dead, but illegal motion is a live ball foul. This one should not be killed.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Actually ... "An "A" Player with his elbows on his knees lined up as an interior lineman is placing or trying to place his hand at the instance the ball is snapped. My interpretation here is a FALSE START" is not a false start - it's illegal motion. He's not illegal until that ball is snapped, and he didn't simulate the start of the play. You should blow False Starts dead, but illegal motion is a live ball foul. This one should not be killed.

I would say that one is an illegal shift, not illegal motion, although they are both 5 yard LB fouls. Support for my opinion would be the following case play.

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.
Comment: If the quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a shift and not motion. (2-38; 7-2-6)


The bold text above is similar to the lineman going from elbows on knees to on ground. He is not moving his feet forward, just his hands, so shift instead of motion.

I agree the other 2 would be a FS.

[wisref2]

Sorry, but I just can't fathom why this is such as issue.

In your first play - lifting the hand is a false start by definition. An interior lineman can't lift his hand off the ground. If you want rule reference, look it up.

In your second play - it is a false start because getting up and rocking forward simulates action at the snap.

In the third play, your lineman is shifting at the time of the snap (going from two-point stance to three-point stance is a shift). Since he is shifting when the ball is snapped, it is an illegal shift. It is NOT a false start because it does not simulate action at the snap (as stated in the other thread, people get up at the snap, they don't go into a three-point stance when the ball is snapped).

To further support that argument, in plays one and two, it doesn't matter when the ball is snapped. The action itself is a foul. In the third one - the shift to a three-point stance is a legal shift. It becomes a foul ONLY if the ball is snapped less than one second after the legal shift. So the shift isn't what made the play illegal, it is the snap that made the shift illegal. Thusly, it is a foul similtanious with the snap - which makes it, by definition, a live ball foul.

Enough said? There - frustration vented. Now I have to get ready for my crew meeting, and believe me, this will not be a point of discussion.

[ABO77]

In the third play... this may or may not be a legal shift, but will always be illegal motion. Just because the one lineman was going to a three point stance when the ball was snapped, by itself, does not constitute an illegal shift.

However, a lineman shifting to a three point stance when the ball is snapped will always be illegal motion:

7-2-7....the player in motion shall be at least 5 yards behind his LOS at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line...