How would you handle this?

[Fedex]

I was line judge in a youth game. On one play, A's guard and tackle on my side were not set for a second before the snap. At the snap, I throw my flag. After the play, I tell my white hat that I have an illegal shift on the guard and tackle. He asked me what happened, and I told him that the guard and tackle were not set. He begins to lecture me that I need to shut this play down. He calls it a dead ball false start and doesn't give B an option. Now, I know that this is a live ball foul and he threw me under the bus on it. Luckily, the situation didn't repeat itself, but how would you have handled it if it happened again during the game? Would you again properly throw it as a live ball foul, or would you improperly shut it down as a false start (thus avoiding another scene)? My white hat in this game was an older gentleman and wouldn't buy my argument. It was pointless to argue with him. Did an illegal shift used to get shut down in years past as a false start? Thanks for any feedback!

Scott

[bigjohn]

I am just surprised to see someone actually call it!

[txrefcshou]

Originally Posted by Fedex

I was line judge in a youth game. On one play, A's guard and tackle on my side were not set for a second before the snap. At the snap, I throw my flag. After the play, I tell my white hat that I have an illegal shift on the guard and tackle. He asked me what happened, and I told him that the guard and tackle were not set. He begins to lecture me that I need to shut this play down. He calls it a dead ball false start and doesn't give B an option. Now, I know that this is a live ball foul and he threw me under the bus on it. Luckily, the situation didn't repeat itself, but how would you have handled it if it happened again during the game? Would you again properly throw it as a live ball foul, or would you improperly shut it down as a false start (thus avoiding another scene)? My white hat in this game was an older gentleman and wouldn't buy my argument. It was pointless to argue with him. Did an illegal shift used to get shut down in years past as a false start? Thanks for any feedback!

Scott

You are correct by the letter of the ncaa rules. My guess is that the white hat just wants to let stuff like that go in a youth game. I would not have told you the way he did, but in the future I would have told you that if it is that bad call a false start, if not let it go.

[Fedex]

The youth game is played under fed rules. This game would be the equivalent of a good middle school game. The infraction was blatant and the coach was already in my ear about them not being set as my flag was being thrown. There wasn't any letting it go. They were still getting set as the snap happened. My question is about the white hat insisting on calling it something it isn't. It wasn't a false start! What if it would have happened again? How can I justify my knowledge of the rules if I shut this play down. I guess I'm wondering if anybody else has been put in this situation.

Scott

[wisref2]

Another chance for my famous saying:

You're gonna get yelled at anyway, so get yelled at for doing the right thing. I would keep calling it correctly, and let him keep making the mistake.

After the game, I would talk to the white hat and explain why this is a foul at the snap and not a false start. I was in that situation when I joined my first varsity crew. Took a while, but I finally convinced them that I was right. I also made sure we talked about the difference at our local association meetings so that everyone, especially the "experienced" guys, understood the rule.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Fedex

I was line judge in a youth game. On one play, A's guard and tackle on my side were not set for a second before the snap. At the snap, I throw my flag. After the play, I tell my white hat that I have an illegal shift on the guard and tackle. He asked me what happened, and I told him that the guard and tackle were not set. He begins to lecture me that I need to shut this play down. He calls it a dead ball false start and doesn't give B an option. Now, I know that this is a live ball foul and he threw me under the bus on it. Luckily, the situation didn't repeat itself, but how would you have handled it if it happened again during the game? Would you again properly throw it as a live ball foul, or would you improperly shut it down as a false start (thus avoiding another scene)? My white hat in this game was an older gentleman and wouldn't buy my argument. It was pointless to argue with him. Did an illegal shift used to get shut down in years past as a false start? Thanks for any feedback!

Scott

CANADIAN PHILOSOPHY:

We too require our linemen to be set for a second prior to the snap. If they're not, it is illegal procedure, and is to be blown dead. If a side guy doesn't blow it dead right away, I want them to kill the play late, rather than never. This is because it says in our book that the officials are empowered to kill the play dead. With that verbiage, it is believed that there is no requirement to kill the play.

When I do suggest that the play be killed, I do it quietly and not in front of players, coaches, etc...

[MJT]

Explain to the WH that the reason it is LB fouls is cuz it is not a foul UNTIL the snap cuz until the snap it can be corrected. So if the snap was a second later, you would not have had a foul. You might also mention that it is no different than an illegal formation, which also can be corrected.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

Explain to the WH that the reason it is LB fouls is cuz it is not a foul UNTIL the snap cuz until the snap it can be corrected. So if the snap was a second later, you would not have had a foul. You might also mention that it is no different than an illegal formation, which also can be corrected.

Possibly the ref knew Fed rules just fine and was applying an unspoken, unwritten "youth football philosophy" that says futile plays are to be killed. He may not even have wanted the infraction flagged if the opposing coach hadn't thought the other team was gaining an advantage by it on previous downs.

Robert

[bigjohn]

and depending on who the home team is!

[wisref2]

Just to give you a little more ammo in your discussion:

A false start is movement that simulates action at the snap. Not being set does not simulate action at the snap. Going down into a three-point stance as the ball is being snapped is not simulating action at the snap (players get up at the snap, they don't go down!), etc.

[Fedex]

Thanks for the replys, guys. I will stick to my guns and continue to call it properly. I do appreciate it!

Scott

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Another thing to remember...because these two guys are late getting into their stances, the defense might have an advantage (legally earned). Who knows? They might cause a fumble or they might drop the runner for a loss, or they might be able to sack the QB. Shutting this play down takes any of those opportunities away.

[FeetBallRef]

FEDEX, All the rules discussions here are correct. Your R made a mistake & you did it correctly. BUT, at this level, it is all about teaching & learning. Try to help the little tykes out.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

Your R made a mistake & did it correctly.

He can't have done both!!

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

He can't have done both!!

YEP, I forgot the word "you"...