replay gets it wrong

joe bonner · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 06:24pm

I have a question about the replay challange in the final minute of the Oakland / New England playoff game. New England Q-back is hit and the ball popped out and was recovered by Oakland's Linebacker . Initial ruling is - fumble , Oakland ball . Replay official calls a challange and the on the field call gets overruled . I thought evidence seen in replay had to be absolutly conclusive before overturning a call . The more I saw this replay , the more convinced I am that Oakland should be playing next week .

Mark Dexter · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 06:43pm

Let us know when the NFL league office issues you a white hat. Then we'll appreciate your insight as to the pass/fumble issue.

johnSandlin · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 10:47pm

Joe,

With all do respect, if you saw the same replay that I did from all the angles you will see that the correct call was made after the play was reviewed. As long as the ball did not touch the left hand of the quarterback or cradled back his body then by rule it is the the throwing motion. From the angle that Referee Walt Coleman had he could not see the other side of the quarterback that well. Upon further review the correct call was made by the official.

johnSandlin · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 10:47pm

Joe,

With all do respect, if you saw the same replay that I did from all the angles you will see that the correct call was made after the play was reviewed. As long as the ball did not touch the left hand of the quarterback or cradled back to his body then by rule it is the the throwing motion. From the angle that Referee Walt Coleman had he could not see the other side of the quarterback that well. Upon further review the correct call was made by the official.

joe bonner · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 10:55pm

John - thanks for the insightful opinion. My mind was stuck on two points 1. )the ball was forced out by opposition 2.) changing the call on the field was too easy . { i am not a fan of replay }

Mark - Do you lose your temper while you work . This is a discussion forum .

bluezebra · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 11:04pm

"Mark - Do you lose your temper while you work . This is a discussion forum"

If you think this is losing his temper, "Let us know when the NFL league office issues you a white hat. Then we'll appreciate your insight as to the pass/fumble issue.", you don't know what the phrase means.

He's being snide, not losing his temper.

Bob

Mark Dexter · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 11:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
"Mark - Do you lose your temper while you work . This is a discussion forum"

If you think this is losing his temper, "Let us know when the NFL league office issues you a white hat. Then we'll appreciate your insight as to the pass/fumble issue.", you don't know what the phrase means.

He's being snide, not losing his temper.

Bob

Actually, it's more sarcasm.

I must admit; at the time I did not realize that you are an official, and thought you were just one of the many whiners I've heard from/read in the past day.

BTW, I still haven't seen the play. Does anyone know if there is a video clip online?

Mark Dexter · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 20, 2002, 11:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by johnSandlin
Joe,

With all do respect, if you saw the same replay that I did from all the angles you will see that the correct call was made after the play was reviewed. As long as the ball did not touch the left hand of the quarterback or cradled back to his body then by rule it is the the throwing motion. From the angle that Referee Walt Coleman had he could not see the other side of the quarterback that well. Upon further review the correct call was made by the official.

Actually, by rule, the throwing arm simply needs to be moving forward at the time. The left hand touching the ball is moot.

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 21, 2002, 10:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Actually, by rule, the throwing arm simply needs to be moving forward at the time. The left hand touching the ball is moot.

Actually, that's not true either. The ball only had to have moved forward prior to being loose. Even if the forward, movement has stopped, it's still an incomplete pass if the QB has not completely tucked the ball away.

NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2 Note 2:
When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.

Ed Hickland · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 21, 2002, 11:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by joe bonner
I have a question about the replay challange in the final minute of the Oakland / New England playoff game. New England Q-back is hit and the ball popped out and was recovered by Oakland's Linebacker . Initial ruling is - fumble , Oakland ball . Replay official calls a challange and the on the field call gets overruled . I thought evidence seen in replay had to be absolutly conclusive before overturning a call . The more I saw this replay , the more convinced I am that Oakland should be playing next week .

I must confess bias as Charles Woodson is a client. But he made a spectacular play blitzing the QB. If Brady had held the ball he would have been sacked for a loss. Or, if Brady had seen Woodson and attempted to avoid him and then lost the ball, Raiders ball.

Brady never saw Woodson and I believe thought he had time to look for another receiver.

The rules are suppose to give fairness and balance to the game. When a CB makes a fantastic play only to have it negated by a rule, then something is lost.

According to Brady he was not attempting a throw and if the referee had discretion then it is a fumble. After all, Walt Coleman ruled a fumble until the review.

bluezebra · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 22, 2002, 12:52am

Ed:

You better read the rule again. The referee does not have discretion on this play. And, from what I saw and heard from Woodson's post-game intereview, he should be out some serious money if Tag has any guts.

Bob

Joeman · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 29, 2002, 02:57am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the replay has to show conclusive evidence to overturn the call on the field, which would give Walt Coleman the discretion as to call it a fumble or incomplete pass. He did not have conclusive evidence or the subject would not be so hotly debated on every football forum I've been to.

I feel the rule should be changed to make it more clearly defined, like "If the ball is in forward motion and is still above the passers shoulder(indicating his continued intention to pass) and it is jarred free, it is an incomplete pass. If the ball is in foreward motion below the passers shoulder(indicating his intention to tuck it away), and it is jarred loose it is a fumble.

No debating it this way huh?

And no Mark, I don't have a white hat either.

Joe.

BktBallRef · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 29, 2002, 10:31pm

That's the same type of very vague rule that was changed.
The rule is simple.
If the forward motion has begun, it's an incomplete pass.
If the ball had not been tucked, it's an incomplete pass.
Coleman was correct, by rule, not by discretion, that the play was an incomplete pass.

Joeman · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 30, 2002, 12:36am

I do not doubt that Coleman felt he made the correct call, but it is without a doubt that the video replay showed no condlusive evidence to overturn the play on the field.

Joe

bluezebra · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 30, 2002, 01:37am

Give it up Joe. There was no need for conclusive evidence. It's the rule. Here are explanations from retired NFL ref Jerry Markbreit:

"If you have an NFL rule book, this rule appears on page 12, rule 3, section 21, article 2, note 1. When an offensive player is holding the ball in order to throw a forward pass, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts the pass. If a defensive player contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer's hand, a forward pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player."

"You are correct. It doesn't matter what the intention of the quarterback is, as long as his arm is moving forward and he loses the ball. I have outlined this specific rule in my first answer. However, the pump fake is a horse of a different color. Here is the rule regarding "tucks" and the pump fake:

"When an offensive player is holding the ball in order to throw a forward pass, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. If the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble. If the player loses possession of the ball while attempting to re-cock his arm, it is a fumble. If you have both hands solidly on the ball in front of your body, this is also considered a tuck position. But Brady did not establish this position."

When all else fails, read the rule.

Bob