Passes while in punt formation question--

[kfo9494]

Question about numbering exception-

A is in scrimmage punt formation and is using the exception to the numbering requirement. (Which means less than 5 players numbered 50-70 on the line)
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Number 80 is lined up as third player from center. However, Number 87 is a wide out and lined up on the line. Making #80 ineligible pass receiver. Before the snap #87 moves off the line making #80 the last player on the scrimmage line.
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Is #80 an eligible pass reciever?

[MJT]

Yes, he is.

[Jim D]

No he would not be eligible. Case book 7.2.5 D. ""Team A sets in a scrimmage-kick formation...Number 33 is positioned as an interior lineman between the ends as an exception to the numbering requirement. A shifts and Number 33 assumes a position on the end of the line..." Ruling - "Number 33 remains ineligible."

[STEVED21]

Sorry, MJT, he isn't.
7.5.b exception:

"Art. 5... Player numbering requirements include:
a. At the snap, at least seven A players shall be on their line of scrimmage.
b. At the snap, at least five A players on the line of scrimmage must be numbered 50-79. B players may be anywhere on or behind the line.
EXCEPTION: When A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b). "

[kfo9494]

I believe I may have missed that in the past.
I can see where the umpire MUST be sure of the numbering. I assume that it is his responsiblity to make sure of the numbers and be responsible for making the call.
If I read this correctly-
If the play that is listed above is an exception to the numbering then once ineligible then always ineligible (except when b touches)
But if the number requirment is met, then that play makes #80 eligible.

[MJT]

Duh! Knew it and blew it!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by kfo9494

Question about numbering exception

A is in scrimmage punt formation and is using the exception to the numbering requirement. (Which means less than 5 players numbered 50-70 on the line).

Number 80 is lined up as third player from center. However, Number 87 is a wide out and lined up on the line. Making #80 ineligible pass receiver. Before the snap #87 moves off the line making #80 the last player on the scrimmage line. Is #80 an eligible pass reciever?

CANADIAN RULING:

Yes.

[a4caster]

Maybe I misread, but the OP said that #80 was third from the center, otherwise, Center, Guard, Tackle, #80. So as long as there were another guard and tackle, he's eligible since #87 shifted. Five on the line of 50-79.
That's why HTBT is always easier!

[Ref inSoCA]

Originally Posted by a4caster

Maybe I misread, but the OP said that #80 was third from the center, otherwise, Center, Guard, Tackle, #80. So as long as there were another guard and tackle, he's eligible since #87 shifted. Five on the line of 50-79.
That's why HTBT is always easier!

A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b). "

No.

Once he took a position on the line inside a receiver, he is and remains inelligible.

[a4caster]

OK, hitting self in head. Helps to read the entire question the tenth time to read that small part "less than 5 numbered"
Been up almost 60 hours in the past three days. Maybe need some sleep!

[Blue37]

Hope this comes out straight.
K has nine on the LOS, four with 50-79 and five with eligible receiver numbers.
89 80 66 60 29 58 72 85 33

Are 80, 29, and 85 all ineligible, or only one of them? If only one of them, how do we determine which one?

If 89 and 33 back off before the entire team is set (assume the up-back is moving from side to side of the formation giving blocking assignments), are 80 and 85 now eligible?

Replace 85 with 79. They now have five players on the line numbered 50-79. If 89 and 33 back off the line, is 80 now eligible?

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Hope this comes out straight.
K has nine on the LOS, four with 50-79 and five with eligible receiver numbers.
89 80 66 60 29 58 72 85 33

Are 80, 29, and 85 all ineligible, or only one of them? If only one of them, how do we determine which one?

All of these players are ineligible.

If 89 and 33 back off before the entire team is set (assume the up-back is moving from side to side of the formation giving blocking assignments), are 80 and 85 now eligible?

Neither are eligible because team A is still using the numbering exception and do not have 5 or more players numbered 50-79 while in scrimmage kick formation.

Replace 85 with 79. They now have five players on the line numbered 50-79. If 89 and 33 back off the line, is 80 now eligible?

Yes 80 is eligible. My interpretation is that they are not using the numbering exception while in scrimmage kick formation because they do have 5 or more players numbered 50-79 on the line.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: This is a question I've had for years and I've never seen it actually answered. Oh yes...many have had opinions, but I've never seen a definitive answer. Assume a legal scrimmage kick formation and consider this line formation (dots used for spacing purposes):

INITIAL FORMATION:
.........80 56 50 67 73 87 89
....61


AFTER SHIFT:
....61 80 56 50 67 73 87
....................................89

We know that #80 is ineligible since he is covered by #61 at the snap. the BIG question is this: Is #87 eligible?

It's my opinion that he is. The standard numbering rule says that Team A must have five numbered 50-79 on the ljne at the snap. They do. Therefore there is no numbering exception in force on this play. Since there's no numbering exception, you can't place additional eligiblility restrictions on Team A. Thus, #89's shift makes #87 eligible.

The rule quote that Ref in SoCA mentioned ("A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).") is absolutely true, but only if Team A is operating under the numbering exception (note, it even uses the words "under this exception"). Since A had five numbered 50-79 on the line at the snap there IS no exception so they can't be operating under it.

I'm sure we'll hear others' opinions. I just offered to share mine.

[Suudy]

Now, I understand the casebook indicates the shift does not make somebody eligible.

But what I don't understand is why. Eligibility is determined at the snap, and there can be as many shifts as A wants. And the exception in 7.2.5a says:

Originally Posted by 2007 NFHS Rules 7.2.5b

A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B.

The relevant part is "must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends."

The question is what is meant by "initial position." I've always thought it meant at the snap. For example, before a shift (assume a scrimmage kick formation in both):

80 23 57 33 58 62 41

After the shift:

23 57 33 58 62 41 80

That is, 80 shifts to the other end of the line.

I understand the casebook says that 23 remains ineligible. But if the "initial position" is established as they first lineup, and they lined up wrong, how can they correct this? What if 80 lined up on the wrong side? Do they all re-huddle then lineup again? Or are they forced to call a timeout?

Thus I think that a fair interpretation would be the position, at the snap, is the "initial position", and determines eligibility.

How did the casebook come up with this interpretation?

[Jim D]

Bob, The play seems to be covered in Case Book 7.2.5 Situation D. I'll change the numbers in the case to match your numbering.

"Team A sets in a scrimmage-kick formation with Number 79 in the deep position as the potential kicker. Number 87 is positioned as an interior lineman between the ends as an exception to the numbering requirement. A shifts and Number 87 assumes a position on the end of the line. Number 61 is now on the other end of the line and number 80, who started on the end, is now an interior lineman...RULING...Number 87 remains ineligible..."

Although the rule sets the exception at the snap, the Case Book sets it based on the initial position.