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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:34pm
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Rule Enforcement

What would you tell the captain as far as his choices?

PLAY:
Second and 10 for for Team A from it's own 20 yardline. B1 graps but does not twist or pull the face mask of Fullback A2, who was blocking behind the neutral zone. The foul occurs before a legal forward pass that crosses the netural zone is caught by A3, who is downed at team A's 26 yardline.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:37pm
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Penalty Enforcement

Talking about NHSF
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 06:30am
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Ok, so you have foul during the run preceeding a loose ball play. Defensive live ball fouls are enforced from the basic spot and the basic spot here is the previous spot since the foul occured during the LBP. So A's options are, decline the penalty and take the result of the play, 3rd and 4, or accept the penalty, 2nd and 5.
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 09:50am
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REPLY: OK Grant...here's the test: Would it be any different for NCAA?
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: OK Grant...here's the test: Would it be any different for NCAA?
Man Bob, you know I am trying to learn the differences! My head hurts trying to sort all this cr*p out!!

Ok, so here is my process to find the answer to your question. (I do this for all plays like this, either NFHS or NCAA).
  • Start with definitions. Here there are a few to look at.
    • Type of play: This is a pass play (I will use NCAA terminology- hopefully correctly too). These start at the snap and end when a legal forward pass is complete.
    • Spots: Basic spot on pass plays is the previous spot.
    • Spot of foul: Doesn't really matter since foul by B.
    • Enforcement spot: Since pass play, enforce from basic spot which is previous spot.
  • Type of foul:
    • Defensive 5 yard facemask.
    • Live ball, during pass play.
    • No automatic first down.
  • Enforcement:
    • If accepted:
      • Distance: 5 yards
      • Where from: Basic spot which is previous spot
      • Down: Replay since LBF
      • Clock status: On ready
    • If declined (wouldn't that be nice and easy?!?):
      • Result of play
      • Clock status: On ready
Now, I REALLY hope I went through that properly. I am sure I messed up the vocab some.

My final answer is no, there wouldn't be any difference. But knowing you the way most of us do, Bob, there probably is some difference.
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 10:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: OK Grant...here's the test: Would it be any different for NCAA?
I'll take a shot, though NCAA isn't my bailiwick and I don't have a copy of the rulebook here.

I believe I've read here that contact fouls against eligible receivers result in automatic first downs. Now I'm not sure if the foul needs to be beyond the NZ or not. I'm going to guess that it does. So I say no difference in the ruling.
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire
I'll take a shot, though NCAA isn't my bailiwick and I don't have a copy of the rulebook here.

I believe I've read here that contact fouls against eligible receivers result in automatic first downs. Now I'm not sure if the foul needs to be beyond the NZ or not. I'm going to guess that it does. So I say no difference in the ruling.
Yes, contact fouls on an eligible receiver is an automatic first down. But in this case, even though he is eligible I would say that since he is in the act of blocking, the automatic first down wouldn't apply.

BTW- here is a link the NCAA rule book. I save a copy on my computers and my jump drive. That way I always have it!http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantsrc
Yes, contact fouls on an eligible receiver is an automatic first down. But in this case, even though he is eligible I would say that since he is in the act of blocking, the automatic first down wouldn't apply.

BTW- here is a link the NCAA rule book. I save a copy on my computers and my jump drive. That way I always have it!http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf
So because this eligible receiver was blocking at the time of the foul -- although he would possibly have gone out on a delay route, and the passer might've waited for him to get open had the blocker not been tied up for a little extra time with the opponent's hand on the mask -- his team loses the benefit of the AFD?

Robert
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 11:39am
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REPLY: Grant...yes it was the automatic first down question I was really asking. How would you react or think about it if, instead of a fullback, it was a WR blocking in the neutral zone who had his face mask pulled? Would you think any differently?
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantsrc
Yes, contact fouls on an eligible receiver is an automatic first down. But in this case, even though he is eligible I would say that since he is in the act of blocking, the automatic first down wouldn't apply.
That would be incorrect from what I have been reading. It's an auto first down. And, to take it a step further let's change things (only slightly) to say the inadvertent facemask was against the QB. Even though the QB threw the pass he's still technically an eligible receiver, and therefore, A would be awarded a first down in this case as well. See 9-3-4e
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 11:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Grant...yes it was the automatic first down question I was really asking. How would you react or think about it if, instead of a fullback, it was a WR blocking in the neutral zone who had his face mask pulled? Would you think any differently?
Ok, so it doesn't matter if he is running a route or anything like that, if he is eligible at the snap and there is a foul committed against him, it is an automatic FD? Got it.
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 03:12pm
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There was an NCAA rules interpretation issued last year (pretty sure it was by Mr. Adams) that said that the runner (in this case the QB who still has the ball) cannot simultaneously be considered an eligible receiver and therefore the AFD would not be applied in the case where the QB still in possession of the ball, had a 5-yd mask committed against him, and then he threw a legal forward pass.

The bulletin pretty clearly said that the ball carrier by definition is a runner, and that he cannot simultaneously be an eligible receiver in the context of this rule.
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 04:58pm
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So with the ball on Team B's 6 yardline and the QB scambles back to the 50 and the tightend comes back to help him and he get's facemasked at the 49 yardline, then the pass is completed to the 48 yard line and the runner is downed there. Are we going back to the 5 yard line for the penatly enforcement? Because the tight end could have went out for a pass?
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 09:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeRoy
So with the ball on Team B's 6 yardline and the QB scambles back to the 50 and the tightend comes back to help him and he get's facemasked at the 49 yardline, then the pass is completed to the 48 yard line and the runner is downed there. Are we going back to the 5 yard line for the penatly enforcement? Because the tight end could have went out for a pass?
The basic spot on passing plays is the previous spot, so the 5 yard penalty will be enforced 1/2 the distance to the 3 yard line and an automatic first down.
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 10:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonTX
The basic spot on passing plays is the previous spot, so the 5 yard penalty will be enforced 1/2 the distance to the 3 yard line and an automatic first down.
That would be for NCAA.

Fed, same thing for the enforcement from previous spot, no automatic first down.
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