Many Frustrated Questions!

[JimNayzium]

I am a coach who loves the rules and the rulebook. My grandfather taught officials and officiated for thirty years. NCAA division I through Independent Private High School.

I have a few questions.

1. Is there a website that has the current Nat. Fed. rule book so I can reference it online and not have to have my rule book everywhere I go?


2. My game tonight, Friday 13th of October. The other team lines up to punt. All of their line is set for one full second in a two point stance. Simultaneously, all seven linemen scream "GO" and shift rapidly into a three point stance. No strategical shift like from tight to wide or anything like that. It was a predisigned shift that had as its only purpose to simulate the snap and draw us offisides. My white cap told me that since they do it everytime it is OK. Am I just way off here??? I thought any shift by the offense that simulated the snap and drew the defense into the neutral zone was a foul on the offense???

3. In the same game the referee enforced a five yard face mask against my team like this.....It was 2 and 5. We, the defense, sacked their quarterback for an 8 yard loss. As we sacked him we face masked. They enforced the five yard face mask from the spot of the foul and made it 2nd and 8, instead of from the previous spot, 1st and TEN.

See this one was in my favor, but next week these same guys might call this again and it work against me. Am I right that it should have been first and ten for the other team? I am not saying they were out to get me, they were just somewhat incompetent.

4. Lastly, we run the veer. I have told the referees for two straight weeks to blow a long slow whistle and make sure the quarterback doesn't have the ball before blowing the play dead when the full back is tackled. Two weeks in a row, the same umpire, (who will be on my black list next week.) has blown an inadvertant whistle on TOUCHDOWNS! Last week it was a fifty yard touchdown, no one in the Northern Hemisphere knew my qb still had the ball, he was thirty yards past everyone as the late lazy whistle sounded as my fullback got tackled. Tonight it was around a forty yard mistake in the first quarter of a drive that fissled later. What can I do? If I execute perfectly it costs me because the refs cannot keep up. What should I do?

The same umpire told me that if both of my wings went into motion at the same time, as long as one of them stopped before the snap i would be fine since they had all been set for one second before they went into motion.....that is when i gave up and decided i was in the midst of true anti-talent....what do you? Any help would be great.

Last year Three different times, referees made me decline a roughing the kicker on a try to keep the point. They said my choices were replay from the one and half, or decline for the point to stay. I said I want it on the kick off and three different referees told me that was not one of my choices......

Stop the madnessssssssss

Here is the 64,000 dollar question...Who were these referees? They were the best of the best in my league, the booking agents and the training referees. Guess what state and league I coach in.....

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JimNayzium
1. Is there a website that has the current Nat. Fed. rule book so I can reference it online and not have to have my rule book everywhere I go?

No, the NF forbids the publishing of their rule books on the Internet. But email me and I can help you out with an edition that will work on your computer.

2. My game tonight, Friday 13th of October. The other team lines up to punt. All of their line is set for one full second in a two point stance. Simultaneously, all seven linemen scream "GO" and shift rapidly into a three point stance. No strategical shift like from tight to wide or anything like that. It was a predisigned shift that had as its only purpose to simulate the snap and draw us offisides. My white cap told me that since they do it everytime it is OK. Am I just way off here??? I thought any shift by the offense that simulated the snap and drew the defense into the neutral zone was a foul on the offense???

The Referee is correct. If they use the shift every time that snap the ball, it's legal. If they do it once, on 4th down with 5 or less to go, and it's obviously done to draw the defense offsides, its a foul.

But don't you reveiw film of your opponents? If you do, then you should know that they will do this. Can't you prepare for this?

BTW, Friday was the 12th, even though it may have seemed like the 13th!

3. In the same game the referee enforced a five yard face mask against my team like this.....It was 2 and 5. We, the defense, sacked their quarterback for an 8 yard loss. As we sacked him we face masked. They enforced the five yard face mask from the spot of the foul and made it 2nd and 8, instead of from the previous spot, 1st and TEN.

See this one was in my favor, but next week these same guys might call this again and it work against me. Am I right that it should have been first and ten for the other team? I am not saying they were out to get me, they were just somewhat incompetent.

No, there weren't incompetent, they were correct. While you seem to be very knowledgable, you may need to bone up on the All But One Principle. This is a running play. A foul by the defense will be enforced from the end of the run.

4. Lastly, we run the veer. I have told the referees for two straight weeks to blow a long slow whistle and make sure the quarterback doesn't have the ball before blowing the play dead when the full back is tackled. Two weeks in a row, the same umpire, (who will be on my black list next week.) has blown an inadvertant whistle on TOUCHDOWNS! Last week it was a fifty yard touchdown, no one in the Northern Hemisphere knew my qb still had the ball, he was thirty yards past everyone as the late lazy whistle sounded as my fullback got tackled. Tonight it was around a forty yard mistake in the first quarter of a drive that fissled later. What can I do? If I execute perfectly it costs me because the refs cannot keep up. What should I do?

Whether it's a long slow whistle or a late lazy whistle, it's still going to be an inadvertent whistle.

BTW, when this occurs, you have the option of taking the ball where it was when the whistle was blown. So while you may not get the TD, you should get the 30 yard gain.

The same umpire told me that if both of my wings went into motion at the same time, as long as one of them stopped before the snap i would be fine since they had all been set for one second before they went into motion.....that is when i gave up and decided i was in the midst of true anti-talent....what do you? Any help would be great..

Obviously, that's not true. Just make your players do it correctly.

Last year Three different times, referees made me decline a roughing the kicker on a try to keep the point. They said my choices were replay from the one and half, or decline for the point to stay. I said I want it on the kick off and three different referees told me that was not one of my choices......

Well, again, it's obvious that is not true. Do you have any contact with the person who books the officiating crews? If you do, call him, explain the problem(s) in a professional manner, and then send him the film.

Here is the 64,000 dollar question...Who were these referees? They were the best of the best in my league, the booking agents and the training referees. Guess what state and league I coach in.....

I don't know where you are. I just hope and assume it isn't in Mass. or Texas, because I'm referring to NF rules!

Drop me an email!

[bluezebra]

"The Referee is correct. If they use the shift every time that snap the ball, it's legal. If they do it once, on 4th down with 5 or less to go, and it's obviously done to draw the defense offsides, its a foul."

Wouldn't the FIRST time they use this shift be illegal? You can't do something EVERY TIME until you do it the first time.

Bob

[BktBallRef]

There's nothing illegal about this shift unless an official judges that the offense is attempting to get the defense to encroach.

[JFM43]

The other team lines up to punt. All of their line is set for one full second in a two point stance. Simultaneously, all seven linemen scream "GO" and shift rapidly into a three point stance. No strategical shift like from tight to wide or anything like that. It was a predisigned shift that had as its only purpose to simulate the snap and draw us offisides. My white cap told me that since they do it everytime it is OK. Am I just way off here??? I thought any shift by the offense that simulated the snap and drew the defense into the neutral zone was a foul on the offense???

The referee is incorrect. You are incorrect. This is legal, period.

Shifting into a 3-point stance is what linemen do at the start of a snap cadence. It does not simulate action at the snap and is not designed to cause the defense to encroach. How fast they go into the stance is irrelevant. Whether they do it the same way every time or different every time is irrelevant. If the defensive coaches review tapes of their opponents and conduct practices accordingly, this is a non-issue.

Lastly, we run the veer. I have told the referees for two straight weeks to blow a long slow whistle and make sure the quarterback doesn't have the ball before blowing the play dead when the full back is tackled. Two weeks in a row, the same umpire, (who will be on my black list next week.) has blown an inadvertant whistle on TOUCHDOWNS! Last week it was a fifty yard touchdown, no one in the Northern Hemisphere knew my qb still had the ball, he was thirty yards past everyone as the late lazy whistle sounded as my fullback got tackled. Tonight it was around a forty yard mistake in the first quarter of a drive that fissled later. What can I do? If I execute perfectly it costs me because the refs cannot keep up. What should I do?

When an inadvertant whistle sounds the ball is dead, regardless of whether it's short and low or long and loud. There are no what ifs to play, all you can do is take whichever option you (well, actually your captain) think is best. You can either take the couple yards gained by then (probably about 5 yards, maybe 8 or 10 if he's fast or the D missed the first tackle) with the down counting or you can replay the down from the previous spot.

If the same official is committing the Cardinal Sin on the same play twice in his career, he needs to consider retirement and his association's training programs need major overhauls (in both rules and mechanics, based on some other situations you've described)--but telling him that yourself probably wouldn't be the prudent thing to do.

[Edited by JFM43 on Oct 15th, 2001 at 02:35 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JFM43
The other team lines up to punt. All of their line is set for one full second in a two point stance. Simultaneously, all seven linemen scream "GO" and shift rapidly into a three point stance. No strategical shift like from tight to wide or anything like that. It was a predisigned shift that had as its only purpose to simulate the snap and draw us offisides. My white cap told me that since they do it everytime it is OK. Am I just way off here??? I thought any shift by the offense that simulated the snap and drew the defense into the neutral zone was a foul on the offense???

The referee is incorrect. You are incorrect. This is legal, period.

Shifting into a 3-point stance is what linemen do at the start of a snap cadence. It does not simulate action at the snap and is not designed to cause the defense to encroach. How fast they go into the stance is irrelevant. Whether they do it the same way every time or different every time is irrelevant. If the defensive coaches review tapes of their opponents and conduct practices accordingly, this is a non-issue.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. The case book play below bears this point out.

2.37 SITUATION B
Is it a shift if before the snap: (a) Team A's guards and tackles go from a hands on knees position to a three-point stance; or (b) back A1 misses the snap count and takes a half step forward while going from an upright position to a four-point stance; or (c) quarterback A1 takes a step forward and puts his hands under the center; or (d) quarterback A1 is in an upright position as he looks over the defense, but he then bends his knees and puts his hands under center?

Ruling: Yes, in (a), (b), (c) and (d). Each of these movements constitutes a shift. In all cases, if the movement simulates the start of a play, it is a false start. Normal shoulder and head movements by the quarterback are not considered a shift.

Many teams will try this on 4th down with less than 5 yards to go and are specifically using the shift to draw the defense across the NZ. The Case Book states that acts that are "interpreted to cause an opponent to encroach are infractions. It is the intent of the rules to prohibit such acts."

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by JimNayzium
I am a coach who loves the rules and the rulebook.

Wow . . . they do exist!

[devdog69]

The case book play you quoted does not, IMHO, support your position that this "shift" is illegal. I have seen this and did not/will not call it. I do not understand how going from a two point to a three point stance can be interpreted as "simulating the start of the play".

[BktBallRef]

The 5 lineman for A are all bent over, with their forearms resting on just above their knees. When the ball is snapped, they suddenly go up and back up for pass protection. Legal play.

The 5 lineman for A are all bent over, with their forearms resting on just above their knees. Just before the ball is snapped, they suddenly go up, just as before, yell "Go!", and then go go back down. However, the action of going up, is the same as before when the ball was snapped, and the defense encroaches.

The shift simulated action as the snap. The initial action is the same as the first play. No difference. The play is designed to make the defense encroach.

If that's not how it's interpreted in your area, that's fine. The rule book is not always black and white. I think we all understand from reading this and other discussion boards, that there are different interpretations in different areas. It doesn't mean that anyone is wrong. But to me, the case book is clear. In all cases, if the movement simulates the start of a play, it is a false start. You don't see how it can but, evidently, someone on the NF rules committee thinks it can. Otherwise, there would have been no reason to insert the statement into the play, would there?

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 16th, 2001 at 10:13 AM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. The case book play below bears this point out.

2.37 SITUATION B
Is it a shift if before the snap: (a) Team A's guards and tackles go from a hands on knees position to a three-point stance; or (b) back A1 misses the snap count and takes a half step forward while going from an upright position to a four-point stance; or (c) quarterback A1 takes a step forward and puts his hands under the center; or (d) quarterback A1 is in an upright position as he looks over the defense, but he then bends his knees and puts his hands under center?

Ruling: Yes, in (a), (b), (c) and (d). Each of these movements constitutes a shift. In all cases, if the movement simulates the start of a play, it is a false start. Normal shoulder and head movements by the quarterback are not considered a shift.

Many teams will try this on 4th down with less than 5 yards to go and are specifically using the shift to draw the defense across the NZ. The Case Book states that acts that are "interpreted to cause an opponent to encroach are infractions. It is the intent of the rules to prohibit such acts."

I agree with BktBallRef on this one for the reasons he outline above. I'm going to flag this as a false-start everytime!

[JimNayzium]

I think the real test here is intent isnt it?

First, they don't do it every play, that is just what the ref told me would make it legal. I know they don't do it every play because later in the game they punted and did not do it. Should they now be given a false start because of their previous shift.

The offensive unit, moved rapidly and yelled "Go!". If this doesn't simulate the beginning of a play than nothing else should. It is really irrelevant to me as a coach what type of movement happens or whether or not it looks like pass blocking or whatever...It is rapid movement by more than one offensive player, which only happens when the ball snaps.

YES, by the way, our kids ran extra monday for jumping offsides, and they were stupid to fall for it. I am not defending my players, i just want to know the proper ruling.

What seems weird to me is if they do it every time it makes it somehow legal. So they have a normally illegal shift that if they execute every time makes it legal..

Here's what I got to say about that.

"Yes Mr. White Hat, we know that you can't tackle the people you are blocking, but I am telling you now ahead of time, that my linemen will grab and tackle their defensive linemen every play. Since I told you ahead of time, and we plan to do it every play this is now legal, Right?"

Give Me a Break.

A Side note: another team in our conference shifts in what i think is a legal way around the rule. They shift from tight punt to wide punt or vice versa based on the block strategy by their opponent. They obviously do it to draw us offisides because they only do it when it is fourth and less than five, but at least they have come up with something to tell the referee that seems honorable.

HEres another one/////???

What if the Left Guard on offense had not put his hand down yet, but everyone else has. He stands up suddenly asking the Quarterback what the snap count is? Is this an illegal shift? I think so, but what do you all think.?


Another one we have been working on lately because of our long season...this one is just for fun..
All of our linemen line up in their proper position tight end through tackle, but they all (except for the center are four yards in the backfield.) Do you picture it...The Quarterback under center, the fullback right behind him, and the guards tackles and ends aligned parallel to the fullback. The halfbacks are behind the tackles. So right now we have one player aligned on the line of scrimmage, the center.

The Quarterback Yells "Braveheart!" and the other linemen yell "Freedom!" as they charge towards the line and immediately jump into their three point stance.

This one i dont really even care if it is illegal. we did it in practice one day and it was so funny, that when you are 2-8 it just maybe worth the five yard false start just to put it on the highlight film.

[devdog69]

Ok, first of all, when I made my comment I did not take into account the shouting of "go" into the equation. That little tidbit would change my perception of the intent quite a bit. I agreee that if the intent is to simulate the snap then I would have a foul. I was just saying that going from a two point stance to three was not, in itself, a foul in my mind. However, now after looking back over the comments I have a question for BsktBallRef. Tony, right? On one hand you mad this comment on the play: "There's nothing illegal about this shift unless an official judges that the offense is attempting to get the defense to encroach." But then you seem to convince yourself and then attempt to convince others by quoting the "bball bible". I think we agree but maybe not. My position is and has always been that if " In all cases, if the movement simulates the start of a play, it is a false start." However, going from a 2 to 3 point stance is not illegal, in and of itself.

[sportswriter]

Originally posted by devdog69
The case book play you quoted does not, IMHO, support your position that this "shift" is illegal. I have seen this and did not/will not call it. I do not understand how going from a two point to a three point stance can be interpreted as "simulating the start of the play".

The key here is the original statement that the linemen were in a two-point stance, and set for about a second before they moved.

As I see it, the "GO," combined with the sudden movement from a still position, is a false start. Back five, repeat down.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by devdog69
Ok, first of all, when I made my comment I did not take into account the shouting of "go" into the equation. That little tidbit would change my perception of the intent quite a bit. I agreee that if the intent is to simulate the snap then I would have a foul. I was just saying that going from a two point stance to three was not, in itself, a foul in my mind. However, now after looking back over the comments I have a question for BsktBallRef. Tony, right? On one hand you mad this comment on the play: "There's nothing illegal about this shift unless an official judges that the offense is attempting to get the defense to encroach." But then you seem to convince yourself and then attempt to convince others by quoting the "bball bible". I think we agree but maybe not. My position is and has always been that if " In all cases, if the movement simulates the start of a play, it is a false start." However, going from a 2 to 3 point stance is not illegal, in and of itself.

I'm not sure I follow everything you said. But yes, I've said all along, if they simulate action at the snap, it's a false start. We, as officials, have to make that judgment. We also have to judge whether any movement by A is an attempt to get B to encroach.

Hopefully, that clears whatever I needed to clarify. BTW, what's a "bball bible?"

[mikesears]

Originally posted by devdog69
However, going from a 2 to 3 point stance is not illegal, in and of itself.

The rules state that a lineman may not move (within reason) once his hand(s) is on or near the ground. I don't interpret this as strictly as others. My interpretation of this is "once a lineman is comfortably set in his stance (2 or 3 point stance) and the QB begins a cadence, he may not move". Being set for one second in my mind is "comfortably set".

Having stated that, if any player or players scream ANYTHING that might be construed as a cadence, and the players suddenly shift (even from two to three-point stance), then it is an obvious attempt to draw the team offside because of both sound and movement (especially when lineman are involved).

Also a shift should never be a rapid movement of the players. It the the offensive team's responsibility NOT to simulate action at the snap.

I'm convinced that this type of play is illegal and should be penalized as a false start.