Illegal Sustitution

[STEVED21]

I worked a playoff game last week when the following occured:

About 1:39 left in game. Score B 13- A 10. 2nd and 8 on the B13. A in hurry up. A comes to line and A2(split end) lines up about two feet outside the numbers. He did not come from the bench and was involved in the prior play. The R holds the RFP for about 3-5 seconds after A is in position for the snap. I was on the line. The play goes off and R throws flag for Ill Sub (not inside #'s) I passed on the call as I felt he was close enough and no deception was involved. BTW the play started on my hash. The play went for 10yds over the middle and did not invove the WR at all. What do you guys think?

[grantsrc]

Not R's call. A little preventative officiating would've solved this. Talk to the player or coach about being inside the numbers.

Why make your job more difficult?

[booker227]

Where was the WR at the ready for play whistle?

[STEVED21]

About 2 feet ouside the numbers. Was on the numbers at one point but R took 3-5 seconds to blow RFP. He kept inching outside.

[Warrenkicker]

I agree. R has enough other things he needs to cover. That is the wing's call. By the way, this is illegal formation and not illegal substitution.

Perhaps you could have approached him and asked what he had. When he said that the end not inside of the numbers after the RFP you could ask him why he is making your call and if he would like it if you started calling roughing the passer and intentional grounding. Of course you need to phrase this all properly but he is stepping on toes here by making himself look like he is the only one out there who knows the rules, which obviously he doesn't if he is calling ISUB. If he wanted this called then he should have covered it in the pregame. Working these play-off games with mixed crews get into problems with officiating philosophies and this is just another example of that.

[Rick KY]

I would have told the R the A player was momentarily inside the 9-yard marks, and he should wave off the flag. If he does, fine. If not, go back to your position and remind the A coach his player needs to be inside the 9-yard marks momentarily at least between the RFP and the snap. Or tell your opposite wing to tell the coach the same.

[ChickenOfNC]

I had about the same thing happen in a JV game about 3 weeks ago.

Team A WR didn't realize he was supposed to be in the game, ran onto the field from the sideline, and lined up about two yards outside the numbers. A corner back was already there waiting on him. After about five seconds, snap occurred.

In my judgment, there was no deception involved. It was a JV game. The defense was well aware of him, so I didn't flag it. But my white hat did. Miffed me pretty good.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

I had about the same thing happen in a JV game about 3 weeks ago.

Team A WR didn't realize he was supposed to be in the game, ran onto the field from the sideline, and lined up about two yards outside the numbers. A corner back was already there waiting on him. After about five seconds, snap occurred.

In my judgment, there was no deception involved. It was a JV game. The defense was well aware of him, so I didn't flag it. But my white hat did. Miffed me pretty good.

I had a similar type of play in a varsity game this season. A was trying to run out the clock before the half and were short a player. He ran on from my sideline and didn't get inside the numbers. I moved him inside the numbers before the snap. I knew that R wouldn't flag it for me but I wasn't also going to be on film as letting it go.

Whether or not I see much value in the rule is not in question here. It is a rule and I work with it. It is not an absolute in my mind like a false start but I do want to see players trying to comply with it. I will move to the numbers prior to the RFP and keep the offensive players from moving outside of me until then. It makes it pretty obvious for the defense when I am out there stopping a player from moving beyond me. I don't get any trouble from anybody enforcing it this way and I haven't had to flag a player since we went to the 9-yard marks.

And once again, this is NOT R's call.

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

I had a similar type of play in a varsity game this season. A was trying to run out the clock before the half and were short a player. He ran on from my sideline and didn't get inside the numbers. I moved him inside the numbers before the snap. I knew that R wouldn't flag it for me but I wasn't also going to be on film as letting it go.

Whether or not I see much value in the rule is not in question here. It is a rule and I work with it. It is not an absolute in my mind like a false start but I do want to see players trying to comply with it. I will move to the numbers prior to the RFP and keep the offensive players from moving outside of me until then. It makes it pretty obvious for the defense when I am out there stopping a player from moving beyond me. I don't get any trouble from anybody enforcing it this way and I haven't had to flag a player since we went to the 9-yard marks.

And once again, this is NOT R's call.

I agree, and I think that's the best way to handle it.

I usually hold up at the numbers and work with the receivers if I can. Preventive officiating goes a long way.

[andy1033]

what was final score?

[STEVED21]

13-10. They missed a last second field goal

[booker227]

The rule was primarily intended to stop unethical coaches (imagine!) from sneaking in a player from the sidelines during the "trick" play. It also makes it easier to count the players, cause everyone's in front of the crew, and there's also some 'semblence' (sic) of order.
We see it. We call it. It doesn't happen twice. Five is better than fifteen.