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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 11:59am
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Illegal Sustitution

I worked a playoff game last week when the following occured:

About 1:39 left in game. Score B 13- A 10. 2nd and 8 on the B13. A in hurry up. A comes to line and A2(split end) lines up about two feet outside the numbers. He did not come from the bench and was involved in the prior play. The R holds the RFP for about 3-5 seconds after A is in position for the snap. I was on the line. The play goes off and R throws flag for Ill Sub (not inside #'s) I passed on the call as I felt he was close enough and no deception was involved. BTW the play started on my hash. The play went for 10yds over the middle and did not invove the WR at all. What do you guys think?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 12:03pm
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Not R's call. A little preventative officiating would've solved this. Talk to the player or coach about being inside the numbers.

Why make your job more difficult?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 12:21pm
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Where was the WR at the ready for play whistle?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 12:25pm
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About 2 feet ouside the numbers. Was on the numbers at one point but R took 3-5 seconds to blow RFP. He kept inching outside.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 12:34pm
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I agree. R has enough other things he needs to cover. That is the wing's call. By the way, this is illegal formation and not illegal substitution.

Perhaps you could have approached him and asked what he had. When he said that the end not inside of the numbers after the RFP you could ask him why he is making your call and if he would like it if you started calling roughing the passer and intentional grounding. Of course you need to phrase this all properly but he is stepping on toes here by making himself look like he is the only one out there who knows the rules, which obviously he doesn't if he is calling ISUB. If he wanted this called then he should have covered it in the pregame. Working these play-off games with mixed crews get into problems with officiating philosophies and this is just another example of that.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:24pm
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I would have told the R the A player was momentarily inside the 9-yard marks, and he should wave off the flag. If he does, fine. If not, go back to your position and remind the A coach his player needs to be inside the 9-yard marks momentarily at least between the RFP and the snap. Or tell your opposite wing to tell the coach the same.
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2006, 08:03am
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If the player was clearly outside of the numbers at the time of the RFP whistle, then you have an illegal formation, regardless of how long it took R to blow the whistle.
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2006, 10:20am
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If it's a foul it's illegal formation, not illegal substitution. But strict definition this is an illegal formation but if A2 was lined up 8.33 yards from the sideline instead of 9 yards I'd probably let it slide. I don't see any intent to deceive the defense.

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Old Wed Nov 15, 2006, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker227
If the player was clearly outside of the numbers at the time of the RFP whistle, then you have an illegal formation, regardless of how long it took R to blow the whistle.
Nice to know you've read the rule book. Now you need to learn how to use it.

What is the purpose of this rule? The purpose of this rule is to not allow the offense to line up outside the numbers, hide on the sideline so that they're not picked up by the defense, and run the sleeper play.

In this situation it is pretty clear that the player participated in the previous play, that the defense KNEW this player was a participant, and that while he was only about two steps outside the numbers, no advantage was gained.

So you're telling me in a 3 point PLAYOFF game, with about a minute left, we're going to be strictly by the letter of the law? Give me a break.

The rule book is a great book. It's the bible. I read it every week. I like to think I know it inside out. But that book will do more harm than good if you don't learn how to apply it.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2006, 08:32am
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Thumbs down

Southgaref
Still miffed about the Civil war or what? Who are you to lecture me about rules and their inforcement? True, it's the independent choice of the official whether to inforce the rule or not, but it's in the rule book for a reason. Our job is to enforce the rules, not to interpret them based on individual bias. (and yes, there is always lee-way when it comes to the yellow flag) Based on your rude and disrespectful comment towards me, I could care less what you, an obviously self-important and ego-bloated official, thinks.
"an official's responsibililty is to create through professional officiating a level playing field on which the teams compete" It's not about the official, but the officiating, at least on my crew.
Chill man!
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2006, 08:53am
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I had about the same thing happen in a JV game about 3 weeks ago.

Team A WR didn't realize he was supposed to be in the game, ran onto the field from the sideline, and lined up about two yards outside the numbers. A corner back was already there waiting on him. After about five seconds, snap occurred.

In my judgment, there was no deception involved. It was a JV game. The defense was well aware of him, so I didn't flag it. But my white hat did. Miffed me pretty good.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2006, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker227
"an official's responsibililty is to create through professional officiating a level playing field on which the teams compete"
And the rule here was intended to create an even playing field... ie, not allow players to hide on the sidelines after a play. When the defense covered the receiver, the playing field was equal...

So tell me why again, I'm supposed to flag this? Because the book says so?

The book also says that I should give players and coaches an USC everytime they try to influence a call.

Bad officials are technical, good officials are practical.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2006, 09:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC
I had about the same thing happen in a JV game about 3 weeks ago.

Team A WR didn't realize he was supposed to be in the game, ran onto the field from the sideline, and lined up about two yards outside the numbers. A corner back was already there waiting on him. After about five seconds, snap occurred.

In my judgment, there was no deception involved. It was a JV game. The defense was well aware of him, so I didn't flag it. But my white hat did. Miffed me pretty good.
I had a similar type of play in a varsity game this season. A was trying to run out the clock before the half and were short a player. He ran on from my sideline and didn't get inside the numbers. I moved him inside the numbers before the snap. I knew that R wouldn't flag it for me but I wasn't also going to be on film as letting it go.

Whether or not I see much value in the rule is not in question here. It is a rule and I work with it. It is not an absolute in my mind like a false start but I do want to see players trying to comply with it. I will move to the numbers prior to the RFP and keep the offensive players from moving outside of me until then. It makes it pretty obvious for the defense when I am out there stopping a player from moving beyond me. I don't get any trouble from anybody enforcing it this way and I haven't had to flag a player since we went to the 9-yard marks.

And once again, this is NOT R's call.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2006, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenkicker
I had a similar type of play in a varsity game this season. A was trying to run out the clock before the half and were short a player. He ran on from my sideline and didn't get inside the numbers. I moved him inside the numbers before the snap. I knew that R wouldn't flag it for me but I wasn't also going to be on film as letting it go.

Whether or not I see much value in the rule is not in question here. It is a rule and I work with it. It is not an absolute in my mind like a false start but I do want to see players trying to comply with it. I will move to the numbers prior to the RFP and keep the offensive players from moving outside of me until then. It makes it pretty obvious for the defense when I am out there stopping a player from moving beyond me. I don't get any trouble from anybody enforcing it this way and I haven't had to flag a player since we went to the 9-yard marks.

And once again, this is NOT R's call.
I agree, and I think that's the best way to handle it.

I usually hold up at the numbers and work with the receivers if I can. Preventive officiating goes a long way.
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Old Thu Nov 16, 2006, 02:35pm
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what was final score?
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