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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 12, 2006, 08:27pm
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it seems there is universal agreement that the rule needs to be changed and also universal agreement that it will be.

Now I know the NCAA Rules Committee, in their infinite wisdom, will leave it the same! (or make it worse).
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 13, 2006, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
"Adams said the refs should have taken action under a rule that states: "If an obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game, the referee may take any action he considers equitable, including assessing a penalty."

What a totally moronic comment. Why put the officials in that position? Simply change the rule so that it's not possible to can an unintended advantage in such a way. Oh yeah, that make that call and then get suspended by the Big Ten for writing their own rules. Gimmie a break, John.
Whats the big deal? These are supposed to be some of the best officials in the country. I don't think asking them to use basic common sense is too much to ask. In fact, I'd fault a HS crew for not taking the same action. Any trained moneky can blindly enforce rules, we are expected to think and apply some common sense to those rules. To a be a game manager and not a strict rules enforcer is what we are called to do.

BTW...I don't think this is grounds for a USC. Simply back them up 5 yards, add time back to the clock. Tell the offending coach if he does this again he will be looking at time being re-added to the clock plus a 15 yard penalty for a USC. Problem solved wihtout creating a big scene.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 13, 2006, 05:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyGardner
"How exactly is this a flagrant foul."

1. 10 players were offside
2. So far offside that most were at the B restraining line at the kick
3. Meaning that A had no chance of returning kick (part of "planned play")
4. Intent of which was to use time and prevent runback
5. And by preventing any real chance at return, forcing B to take penalty

Coaching an intentional foul in such a way as to put the opponent at a significant disadvantage IMO is the definition of both FLAGRANT and UNSPORTSMANLIKE.
Wow! You almost convinced me that you are right when you used the [B]bold[B] and ALL CAPS...but I have a few more questions.

In the Fed rulebook I was unable to find a definition of flagrant. Am I wrong? What about NCAA, is it defined?

In every case that I could find in the fed, a flagrant foul resulted in an ejection. Should the coach be ejected in your opinion?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 13, 2006, 05:55pm
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Location: Katy, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sloth
Whats the big deal? These are supposed to be some of the best officials in the country. I don't think asking them to use basic common sense is too much to ask. In fact, I'd fault a HS crew for not taking the same action. Any trained moneky can blindly enforce rules, we are expected to think and apply some common sense to those rules. To a be a game manager and not a strict rules enforcer is what we are called to do.

BTW...I don't think this is grounds for a USC. Simply back them up 5 yards, add time back to the clock. Tell the offending coach if he does this again he will be looking at time being re-added to the clock plus a 15 yard penalty for a USC. Problem solved wihtout creating a big scene.
Here's the problem... the statement from the NCAA was, ""If an obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game, the referee may take any action he considers equitable, including assessing a penalty." Unfortunately, this unfair act IS specifically covered by the rules - offsides is a 5-yard penalty. There is no wisdom from the NCAA (in case play or rulebook) telling us that 10 5-yarders on the same play should be a 15-yarder and a fixing of the clock.

It may be common sense to your or me, sitting here on our computers. But how many of us would have risked our lucrative college officiating careers essentially making up a solution on the fly and HOPING it coincided with the opinions of our superiors?

The answer is - Not Many.

And the fault lies in the rulesmakers who changed this rule without much peer review, or even simply reading here, where a number of us pointed out this specific problem with the rule.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 13, 2006, 05:57pm
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Location: Katy, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat
Wow! You almost convinced me that you are right when you used the [B]bold[B] and ALL CAPS...but I have a few more questions.

In the Fed rulebook I was unable to find a definition of flagrant. Am I wrong? What about NCAA, is it defined?

In every case that I could find in the fed, a flagrant foul resulted in an ejection. Should the coach be ejected in your opinion?
No - a flagrant PERSONAL foul is an ejection. "Flagrant" is a simple word found in any dictionary. If you don't find this situation a "flagrant" foul, I question your judgement. My problem with the whole thing is that this flagrant misuse of a rule was FORSEEABLE, yet the NCAA did not forsee it. They sent out memos with excruciating detail regarding exactly when to start the clock on the snap instead of the RFP ... but couldn't forsee THIS scenario, when everyone here (and at Griffs) could and did forsee EXACTLY this.
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