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-   -   wisconsin vs penn state - USC? (https://forum.officiating.com/football/29279-wisconsin-vs-penn-state-usc.html)

blevak Sat Nov 04, 2006 01:52pm

wisconsin vs penn state - USC?
 
Is it just me, or did the Wisconsin team actually commit two intentional offsides penalties during the last 20 or so seconds of the first half? Seems to me this is should be either a USC and/or replacing time on the clock. Although the latter seems fair (in fact both do to me), I'm not entirely sure that replacing time is allowed.

TXMike Sat Nov 04, 2006 02:26pm

Apparently Paterno thought the same thing. Maybe this will help get the rule cleaned up in the offseason. Penn State did not have to permit a rekick. They could have taken the ball after the 1st kick and had a 5 yarder enforced from where the return ended. (They had a return didn't they?)

Forksref Sat Nov 04, 2006 04:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by blevak
Is it just me, or did the Wisconsin team actually commit two intentional offsides penalties during the last 20 or so seconds of the first half? Seems to me this is should be either a USC and/or replacing time on the clock. Although the latter seems fair (in fact both do to me), I'm not entirely sure that replacing time is allowed.

I've had that question asked. I would start the clock on the snap if there were repeated penalties. It's hard to judge intent sometimes, but I would reserve this option.

Theisey Sat Nov 04, 2006 05:15pm

But as TXMike says, PSU did not have to accept the foul for a rekick, they could accept a 5-yard markoff from the end of the run. That rule change came in just a couple of years ago and has nothing to do with the timing change this year.
The clock was going to start on the RFP anyhow, so why waste it on a rekick when you could be snapping the ball.

blevak Sat Nov 04, 2006 06:21pm

I think the point that i was trying to make earlier is that Wisconsin apparently gets an advantage by being able to run off the clock twice in the situation they were in. Why should Penn be effectively penalized for loss of time due to what, in my opinion were tactics that could and should be considered unsportsmanlike on the part of Wisconsin.

The rule to start the clock on the kick was intended to speed up the game, not to be used for unethical purposes.

Just my opinion. Hope they figure this one out in the off-season.

TXMike Sat Nov 04, 2006 06:29pm

How can you judge they "deliberately" went offside on the KO?

Initially it was reported that that the rule this year would be that inside the last 2 minutes of a half the clock would not start on KO's until ball was legally touched after the kick. However, that is not what it actually ended up being. It would be easy to put that little change in if they choose to do so.

blevak Sat Nov 04, 2006 06:38pm

Your point is well taken - it's very difficult to judge whether a team is guilty of USC in this situation. However when a nationally ranked team, has all players but one go offsides twice in a row - methinks something is rotten in Denmark. One could argue that it is possible for it to happen, one can also argue that bumblebees can't logically fly either.

Unsportsman-like Conduct will become one of the most difficult rules to apply in the future. And one of the most important rules if we are to keep football a sport that follows a defined code of ethics.

I would say that the fault (if one can call it a fault - I do) lies primarily with the coaches. Again this is not an instance of one individual breaking a rule or crossing a line. Here we have one or more coaches that have willingly and knowingly coached their players to (again this is my opinion) break the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

Trap Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:03am

That's the problem with rules designed for TV. Not for the game of football. People always stretch rules or find loopholes or test limits, however you want to say it. I don't think it USC, just testing the limits. I think it was a very smart play by Wisconsin, and shows the stupidity of make rules for TV. But I guess just like everthing $'s rule. TMO

MJT Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXMike
How can you judge they "deliberately" went offside on the KO?

TXMike, the 2nd time they did it, I am interpreting it to be deliberate. If a team has 2 FStarts within the last 5 seconds of the play clock, in the last 2 mintues of the game are you going to start the clock on the RFP the 2nd time? I'm sure you are, and the rules support us in doing so.

The second time they did this, I think the official has the opportunity, within the rules, to set the clock back to the time it was before the KO, and start the clock on the snap. I'd be VERY suprised if the NCAA does not make some allowances for this next year. They, more than the NF, seem to take care of these types of things pretty quickly. Pretty easy change, something like this... "after a 2nd consecutive offisides on the kicking team, team R can take the ball 5 yards from the DB spot and the clock will be reset to the time it was before the kick."

gsf23 Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:46pm

North Dakota State University did the same thing that afternoon in their game also. They did it at the end of the game though after just taking the lead. They were about 10 yards downfield before the ball was kicked. By the time the returner fielded the kick he was pretty much surrounded and easily tackled. During the kick, time ran out and on the next play, it was basically just an onside squiber to one of the up men, easily covered basically giving Cal Davis no chance to win the game with either a return or a quick recovery, fair catch and then a hail mary.

MJT Mon Nov 06, 2006 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsf23
North Dakota State University did the same thing that afternoon in their game also. They did it at the end of the game though after just taking the lead. They were about 10 yards downfield before the ball was kicked. By the time the returner fielded the kick he was pretty much surrounded and easily tackled. During the kick, time ran out and on the next play, it was basically just an onside squiber to one of the up men, easily covered basically giving Cal Davis no chance to win the game with either a return or a quick recovery, fair catch and then a hail mary.

Great morals being taught by that coach.

gsf23 Mon Nov 06, 2006 03:30pm

It is easily fixed. Just make off-sides on the kick-off like a false start on offense. Blow it dead right away, penalize and kick again. No time comes off and teams would get no advantage from doing it.

grantsrc Mon Nov 06, 2006 03:49pm

Video Clip
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp5WM94UOBg

PSU213 Mon Nov 06, 2006 05:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXMike
Apparently Paterno thought the same thing. Maybe this will help get the rule cleaned up in the offseason. Penn State did not have to permit a rekick. They could have taken the ball after the 1st kick and had a 5 yarder enforced from where the return ended. (They had a return didn't they?)

To address a later post, you can probably deduce it was deliberately offsides when 10 guys (all but the kicker of course) are out to the 40 or so when the ball is kicked. And, yes, they did have a return, but they only got it out to about the 12 yrd line or so since, as noted, all the defenders got such a large head start by being so far offsides when the ball was kicked. This was not, of course, the difference in the game...it just irritates me when a team so blatently cheats.

Theisey Mon Nov 06, 2006 05:40pm

First of all, I have no team interest in the game so I can say that Wisconsin did NOT cheat.
They exploited a rule quirk that from the day the rule changes came out were talked about and beat up as being bad but also 100% legal at this time. All we needed was for a team to do it. In this case, do it twice because the penalty was accepted.

I do hope a change is in store for next year.


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