One key thing coach's evaluations do tell us

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

This just illustrates one of many reasons I find coaches' evaluations worthless.

I didn't have a huge amount of time to post when I threw out this one sentence, but I want to clarify.

I want coaches and teams to think we hustle, work hard, and don't care who wins. But asking coaches whether we know the rules, use proper mechanics, etc. is useless unless the coach has as much experience as me or more AS AN OFFICIAL.

I've had observing assigning commissioners who have never worked the sport say they "question my positioning" on a certain play. While I'm polite (I do want to be rehired, for the most part) but I wonder how someone who's never walked in my shoes is somehow qualified to rate me.

Can I rate the HS varsity coach who wanted an uncatchable pass called? Can I rate the HS varsity coach who tried to make #73 "eligible?" Can I rate the varsity coach who thinks a personal foul is an automatic first down?

Frankly I don't want to. And I don't want those coaches rating me cause they don't think I know the rules.

[bisonlj]

Do most states use coach's votes for playoff assignments? If not, what system do you use? If you use coach's votes, are there any other criteria used?

[cougar729]

I remember an article in Referee mag. a few years ago that talked about officials rating officials, and the ratings were all extremely high, and the fact that coaches evaluations were all good representative of the quality of officiating. I took to beleiving that coaches evaluations might have meant something, but now after reading this board and others, and seeing how critical we are of ourselvs and others, I'm rethinking my opinion on coaches evaluations, is there any good way officials can rate other officials?

[TXMike]

Several ways for us to evaluate each other.

There is an assigning system known as Arbiter which your Association can buy and use online. It has many functions related to administration of an association but also has a feature that permits officials to evaluate each other on line.


There are any number of web-based forms which an association can use to permit members to submit evaluations on officials.

Members can be permitted to submit written evaluations on each other in a "suggestion box" type set up.

Or some members of the group can be designated and trained as observers and do game observations.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I didn't have a huge amount of time to post when I threw out this one sentence, but I want to clarify.

I want coaches and teams to think we hustle, work hard, and don't care who wins. But asking coaches whether we know the rules, use proper mechanics, etc. is useless unless the coach has as much experience as me or more AS AN OFFICIAL.

I've had observing assigning commissioners who have never worked the sport say they "question my positioning" on a certain play. While I'm polite (I do want to be rehired, for the most part) but I wonder how someone who's never walked in my shoes is somehow qualified to rate me.

Can I rate the HS varsity coach who wanted an uncatchable pass called? Can I rate the HS varsity coach who tried to make #73 "eligible?" Can I rate the varsity coach who thinks a personal foul is an automatic first down?

Frankly I don't want to. And I don't want those coaches rating me cause they don't think I know the rules.

I have mixed feelings on coaches' evaluations. First, most coaches don't know rules very well and mechanics even less. But, they can tell if an official can communicate and handle the game. I think we should look at the big picture in coaches' evaluations. Last year we sent out cards to coaches that they would receive on the Monday after the Friday game so that they would have a "cooling off" period. We gleaned two consistent points from the coaches that they saw as areas needing improvement: (1) communication; (2) rules knowledge. We threw out the occasional cheap shot, etc. and looked at the trend in our results. This year we made those two areas an emphasis in our association and I think we are better for it.

My advice is to look at the big picture (consensus if you will) of the evaluations that you get from coaches and act on those items. I think coaches can give us valuable feedback if we throw out the garbage and look at the big picture. In my profession and in my avocation of officiating I like to use the term "feedback" rather than evaluation if possible. Feedback gives the process a more positive look to it and we view it that way now.

[FootballRef05]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I have mixed feelings on coaches' evaluations. First, most coaches don't know rules very well and mechanics even less. But, they can tell if an official can communicate and handle the game. I think we should look at the big picture in coaches' evaluations. Last year we sent out cards to coaches that they would receive on the Monday after the Friday game so that they would have a "cooling off" period. We gleaned two consistent points from the coaches that they saw as areas needing improvement: (1) communication; (2) rules knowledge. We threw out the occasional cheap shot, etc. and looked at the trend in our results. This year we made those two areas an emphasis in our association and I think we are better for it.

My advice is to look at the big picture (consensus if you will) of the evaluations that you get from coaches and act on those items. I think coaches can give us valuable feedback if we throw out the garbage and look at the big picture. In my profession and in my avocation of officiating I like to use the term "feedback" rather than evaluation if possible. Feedback gives the process a more positive look to it and we view it that way now.

As we have stated, how can you glean rules knowledge from coaches "feedback"? As I, and many others have stated, coached do not know the rules so taking away that I need to improve my rules knowledge my a coaches feedback is not something I am willing to do. As Rich said so well, these guys know little if nothing about what we do and how we do it. They should focus on coaching the game and not worrying about what we do.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by FootballRef05

As we have stated, how can you glean rules knowledge from coaches "feedback"? As I, and many others have stated, coached do not know the rules so taking away that I need to improve my rules knowledge my a coaches feedback is not something I am willing to do. As Rich said so well, these guys know little if nothing about what we do and how we do it. They should focus on coaching the game and not worrying about what we do.

Believe it or not, SOME coaches know the rules or at least some specific rules. I have seen some of the situations and the coaches were right and the official was wrong. They have legitimate questions sometimes and we must respond to those questions. I am not quite willing to believe that ALL of our officials know ALL of the rules and apply them correctly ALL of the time. If they did, they wouldn't be signing on to this forum.

As for me, I haven't quite got the entire rule book memorized so I AM willing to improve my rules knowledge every year. For those of you who have it memorized, congratulations!

[bisonlj]

We often hear "I can't believe you made that call. I'll make sure you get a '1' vote for the playoffs." Many wing officials are afraid to be too strict on enforcing sideline decorum because they feel it will negatively affect their score. It's really not a healthy environment and most coaches don't like it either. They have more important things to do than evaluate the crew. As hard as our job is at least our livelihood doesn't depend on it. If a coach makes enough mistakes, he's fired!

[sloth]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We often hear "I can't believe you made that call. I'll make sure you get a '1' vote for the playoffs." Many wing officials are afraid to be too strict on enforcing sideline decorum because they feel it will negatively affect their score. It's really not a healthy environment and most coaches don't like it either. They have more important things to do than evaluate the crew. As hard as our job is at least our livelihood doesn't depend on it. If a coach makes enough mistakes, he's fired!

As a wing official you do feel a certain amount of pressure to not offend a coach. I posted earlier this year about a USC that I threw on a coach for taunting an opposing player. Fortunately, that happened after the post season vote, but that should never have to enter your mind. If you have conduct that need to be puinished the last thing you should be thinking is "do I really want to do this, it might cost us advancing in the post season". As much as I hate to say it that is something that will always be in the back of my mind as I work the sideline.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We often hear "I can't believe you made that call. I'll make sure you get a '1' vote for the playoffs." Many wing officials are afraid to be too strict on enforcing sideline decorum because they feel it will negatively affect their score. It's really not a healthy environment and most coaches don't like it either. They have more important things to do than evaluate the crew. As hard as our job is at least our livelihood doesn't depend on it. If a coach makes enough mistakes, he's fired!

If a coach used this line...

"I can't believe you made that call. I'll make sure you get a '1' vote for the playoffs."

...there would be an immediate 15 yard USC tacked on. It's right up there with "you'll never work here again" or "you're through in this conference."

My crew got blackballed from a conference after I gave a USC to a coach who ran out to the hashmarks to argue a spearing ejection last season. My only regret looking back was not tossing the idiot when he tried to continue his nonsense at halftime.

Oh well, my schedule's full. And live and learn.

[ToGreySt]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

If a coach used this line...

"I can't believe you made that call. I'll make sure you get a '1' vote for the playoffs."

...there would be an immediate 15 yard USC tacked on. It's right up there with "you'll never work here again" or "you're through in this conference."

My crew got blackballed from a conference after I gave a USC to a coach who ran out to the hashmarks to argue a spearing ejection last season. My only regret looking back was not tossing the idiot when he tried to continue his nonsense at halftime.

Oh well, my schedule's full. And live and learn.

you say live and learn, i'm just curious if there was anything you could have done to avoid being blackballed. I'm just curious because I'm sure this happens more often than I would like to believe. I would like to avoid being blackballed, but I also don't want to become a " " out on the field

Joe

[FootballRef05]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Believe it or not, SOME coaches know the rules or at least some specific rules. I have seen some of the situations and the coaches were right and the official was wrong. They have legitimate questions sometimes and we must respond to those questions. I am not quite willing to believe that ALL of our officials know ALL of the rules and apply them correctly ALL of the time. If they did, they wouldn't be signing on to this forum.

As for me, I haven't quite got the entire rule book memorized so I AM willing to improve my rules knowledge every year. For those of you who have it memorized, congratulations!

I never said I know all of the rules nor have I said not a single coach knows any of the rules. The majority don't know enough to be rating my preformance on the field; that I know for sure. As far as officials go, with 4 or 5 men out there we get it correct 99.9999% of the time. Sure, there is the time when something is admisistered wrong or interperted incorrectly, none of us on the field are perfect.

I don't think your assessment of officials signing on to this forum has any bearing on ones rules knowledge. Most come here to IMPROVE their rules knowledge and share their on field experiences with other officials. Comments like that only bolster my optnion that coaches know little of what we do and the time we put in to become officials and master our profession.

[Smiley]

Neither in Tennessee where I am now, nor in South Carolina, where I was until 3 years ago, do coaches evaluate officials. In SC, there was a rating system that included officials evauations and test score, that determined how far you went in the playoffs. I'm still not clear on the Tennessee system, but I think your local association nominates you and the state decides somehow. After having 3 state finals games in SC, I have only had one playoff game in Tennessee. Of course, the first year I was in Tennessee, I continued to work my Friday night games in SC, so I have really only had one full year in Tennessee.

[bisonlj]

In Indiana, the coaches are asked to vote on or around week 7 (until this year they received a paper listing but this year it was online). The "ballot" includes all the crews in the state that applied for the playoffs. The coaches are asked to rate (on a scale of 1-5) the crews that have worked their games the past 2-3 years. There is no other feedback on this vote. There is nothing that verifies the crews they voted for actually worked their games. There's no requirement that they have to vote for every crew that worked for them. There's not even a requirement that they have to vote! (participation was up to 94% this year so online definitely helped)

Because of this system some crews get 80-100 votes and others get 8-10. You don't find out until the final week of the season if you have a playoff game (Indiana has an all-in tournament so almost every crew gets at least one game). Then you don't find out until the next Monday if you get a game in the next round.

After the season is over you get a list of your scores and a list of the schools that voted for you (you have to guess which schools gave you which scores). You also get a list of the average scores for all the other crews so you see where you fell.

Because of this system it's largely based on who you know rather than the quality of the crew. Officials who have been around for many years or who work in education or who officiate other sports (especially basketball) are the ones who advance beyond the first round and especially into later rounds (it's a 6-round tournament).

The Indiana Football Officials Association is working with the Indiana Football Coaches Association and the IHSAA to change the system but it will probably take time. They did develop a separate feedback form this year to get specific feedback from coaches on things like appearance, rules knowledge, game administration and mechanics. I believe the intent is to try to evolve this form into the voting as long as coaches are involved.

I don't have an issue with coach's evaluating officials. The feedback could be valuable. The fact that your playoff fate rests on it is a little disconcerting.

[parepat]

In Ohio we have an even more convaluted system designed to be so inclusinve that none of it has any impact. Now the system has five components

1.Coaches-They are to vote on each position in each game. The officials do not have access to the voting results until 99 games are voted on. Based on my current avereage varsity schedule, I should get this meaningful feedback in the year 2015. Coaches are not paying attention to what we are doing. They only pay attention to us when it positively or negatively impacts their team.

2. Athletic Directors- In my experence they do not watch the game, and certainly do not watch the officials. Instead they are taking tickets, counting money and all of their other duties on game night.

3. The local associations- Each local association can nominate up to thirty officials. This done by a vote. The question is, when I am doing my game on Friday night how am I supposed to watch all of my fellow officials? Can't. It is a popularity contest and is divisive to our association.

4. League Assignors. They obviously can't watch six or eight games every friday. Thus where do they get their information. Yes, you guessed it. From coaches complaining.

5.State staff- Yes those guys in Columbus who most of us have never met. There are over 2,500 of us and less than 5 of them.

The weight that each component carries is not disclosed nor are we told the outcome of any of the votes other than that of our association.

The results- Here is an example. In our association we nominated three umpires. None of the three received any playoff assignments. However, another Umpire from our association who was not nominated received five games including a state championship.