Illegal Participation

[cougar729]

Havent had this come up or anything, just was thinking about it.

Has anyone ever thought about the way to enforce illegal participation...when say there are 12 Team B members on a play (yeah, I know we nail them with Illegal Sub. before the snap, but nevertheless...) and Team A gains 16 or more yards on the play.

For enforcement we say... accept and we give them 15 from the previous spot, or decline and take the ball where you were tackled. In this case (more than what the penalty is giving them)

What is to say that it's the 12th man that made the tackle, and that A would have had more yards on the play, had the defense only been playing with 11.

Seems like a special enforcement simliar to Roughing the passer would be appropriate for a situation like that.

[mcrowder]

This is just like any play where A outgains the penalty enforcement. IP is "worth" 15 yards. If A gained more than what the penalty is worth, then A's choosing to decline makes total sense to me, just like a play where the defense interferes, knocking the receiver off stride, but the receiver makes the catch anyway, falling down immediately. Perhaps with out the interference, he keeps his feet and score, but we cannot assume that. The way the current rule is written totally makes sense to me.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by cougar729

Havent had this come up or anything, just was thinking about it.

Has anyone ever thought about the way to enforce illegal participation...when say there are 12 Team B members on a play (yeah, I know we nail them with Illegal Sub. before the snap, but nevertheless...) and Team A gains 16 or more yards on the play.

For enforcement we say... accept and we give them 15 from the previous spot, or decline and take the ball where you were tackled. In this case (more than what the penalty is giving them)

What is to say that it's the 12th man that made the tackle, and that A would have had more yards on the play, had the defense only been playing with 11.

Seems like a special enforcement simliar to Roughing the passer would be appropriate for a situation like that.

I think that you have a good point here, maybe the runner would have scored a TD if they would have only had 11 players. Maybe it should be taked on the the end of the play.

[MIcoach]

in our games this year we have had this called 3 different ways.

first was a 10 yd penalty and replay the down

second was a 5 yd penalty (dont think the ref knew what he was doing, he made alot of other calls like this) and replay the down

third was this weekend and it was a 15 yd penalty at the end of the run.

so if i am reading what you all have put down here, it should be a 15 yd penalty enforced from the original LOS, unless the team declines, in which case it would be the result of the play?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by MIcoach

in our games this year we have had this called 3 different ways.

first was a 10 yd penalty and replay the down

second was a 5 yd penalty (dont think the ref knew what he was doing, he made alot of other calls like this) and replay the down

third was this weekend and it was a 15 yd penalty at the end of the run.

so if i am reading what you all have put down here, it should be a 15 yd penalty enforced from the original LOS, unless the team declines, in which case it would be the result of the play?

If they kill the play just before the snap(sometimes sounds like AT the snap), it would be 5 and replay. if the play continues, it's 15 from the original LOS (or decline).

Someone did mention here a few weeks back that IP in their area was 10 yards, but I don't remember if that was HS, LL, Canadian, or something else.

[bossman72]

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

10 yards.

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

Illegal substitution can be a live ball or a dead ball foul, but does not involve particpation. Illegal participation always involves participation and is always a live ball foul. The prime example is 12 players on the field. If the play is killed before the snap, it is illegal substitution. If the snap takes place and all 12 players participate, it is illegal participation.

[ref49873]

If you observe 12 men on either A or B prior to the snap and no one is making an attempt to leave the field, should you let the play go and enforce as IP, or kill it at the snap and enforce as IS?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For both Federation and NCAA, this is supposed to be flagged as a dead ball illegal substitution foul.

[eprov]

IMO, If you know there is 12 on the field before you must call it. Why would you let the play go off. We stress counting before the snap. Ref and U count O, LJ, HL, and BJ count D.
Scrimmage kicks are always times when 12 on the field can happen. Of course it dose not help when the coach runs out a another D player because he thinks there is 10 out there.
We do not say anything to the coach, like only ten out here. Its their job not ours.

[MIcoach]

who's job is it to call the illegal substitution foul?

a couple of weeks ago, we had a head ref who refused to call it and i actually had to say something to the side official about it before a flag was thrown. this happened twice. i asked the side official if it was supposed to be an automatic (breaking with 12 in huddle), and he said yes and no, they will give the off. time to call a timeout, but if they dont call a timeout then the head official is supposed to throw the flag.

i understand in little league waiting for a timeout to be called, but how long should you wait before flagging the play? each time the ball was snapped and like stated before the side judge threw the flag and blew it dead before the head ref moved.

eprov, what level do you officiate in? most refs in the little league levels will let you know when you have 10, or even 12. some will even hold up the play till you get enough on the field. i can understand not saying anything in the high school level, but with younger kids sometimes it can get confusing for them, and they dont always pay attention to what is going on out on the field.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by MIcoach

who's job is it to call the illegal substitution foul?

a couple of weeks ago, we had a head ref who refused to call it and i actually had to say something to the side official about it before a flag was thrown. this happened twice. i asked the side official if it was supposed to be an automatic (breaking with 12 in huddle), and he said yes and no, they will give the off. time to call a timeout, but if they dont call a timeout then the head official is supposed to throw the flag.

i understand in little league waiting for a timeout to be called, but how long should you wait before flagging the play? each time the ball was snapped and like stated before the side judge threw the flag and blew it dead before the head ref moved.

eprov, what level do you officiate in? most refs in the little league levels will let you know when you have 10, or even 12. some will even hold up the play till you get enough on the field. i can understand not saying anything in the high school level, but with younger kids sometimes it can get confusing for them, and they dont always pay attention to what is going on out on the field.

REPLY: MICoach...here's the way the Federation rule is written regardless of what any official or coach or TV announcer tells you: When a substitute enters the field to replace a player, that replaced player must "...leave the field immediately." The Federation doesn't define 'immediately,' but convention usually dictates 2-3 seconds after the sub makes himself a player. It has nothing to do with huddles; it has nothing to do with the ready-for-play whistle by the referee. All it has to do with is the replaced player making his way toward the sideline within 2-3 seconds. If, by coincidence, the sub arrives to the offense's huddle, and then the huddle breaks, that huddle might be breking with twelve players. However, there is no foul as long as the replaced player makes his way to the sideline. Anything you've heard about it being illegal to break the huddle with twelve is pure horse-hockey--at least for Federation ball. And the penalty for this dead ball illegal substitution foul is five yards. The NCAA's rule is similar except that they specifically define the word 'immediately' as being "within three seconds." Also, in NCAA ball, it is a foul for the offensive team to break its huddle with twelve or more players.

I forgot...it is typically the referee and umpire's job to count the offensive team (including keeping track of their substitutions). The back judge and wing officials do the same for the defense.

[eprov]

I work in Mass and its our boards mechs we use counting by R & U Off, Wings and BJ Def. Its a carry over from our ECAC college officials on our board. We use it into the Pop Warner level as well. Fist, got 11, hands to shoulders for 10. Then we just make sure we have 7 on the LOS. As a Ref, I review our mechs for counting in my pre-game as do all our Ref's don't let the play go off with 12. Again if someone runs onto the field after the fact at the snap, we got IP.

At the PW level I(we) will hold up the play after confirming got 10 and say count-m-up if they got 12. When we get into PW playoffs all bets are off. Better teams reach this level and coaches usually know better by the end of the season.