Illegal Participation

[MIcoach]

in our games this year we have had this called 3 different ways.

first was a 10 yd penalty and replay the down

second was a 5 yd penalty (dont think the ref knew what he was doing, he made alot of other calls like this) and replay the down

third was this weekend and it was a 15 yd penalty at the end of the run.

so if i am reading what you all have put down here, it should be a 15 yd penalty enforced from the original LOS, unless the team declines, in which case it would be the result of the play?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by MIcoach

in our games this year we have had this called 3 different ways.

first was a 10 yd penalty and replay the down

second was a 5 yd penalty (dont think the ref knew what he was doing, he made alot of other calls like this) and replay the down

third was this weekend and it was a 15 yd penalty at the end of the run.

so if i am reading what you all have put down here, it should be a 15 yd penalty enforced from the original LOS, unless the team declines, in which case it would be the result of the play?

If they kill the play just before the snap(sometimes sounds like AT the snap), it would be 5 and replay. if the play continues, it's 15 from the original LOS (or decline).

Someone did mention here a few weeks back that IP in their area was 10 yards, but I don't remember if that was HS, LL, Canadian, or something else.

[bossman72]

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

10 yards.

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

Illegal substitution can be a live ball or a dead ball foul, but does not involve particpation. Illegal participation always involves participation and is always a live ball foul. The prime example is 12 players on the field. If the play is killed before the snap, it is illegal substitution. If the snap takes place and all 12 players participate, it is illegal participation.

[ref49873]

If you observe 12 men on either A or B prior to the snap and no one is making an attempt to leave the field, should you let the play go and enforce as IP, or kill it at the snap and enforce as IS?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For both Federation and NCAA, this is supposed to be flagged as a dead ball illegal substitution foul.

[eprov]

IMO, If you know there is 12 on the field before you must call it. Why would you let the play go off. We stress counting before the snap. Ref and U count O, LJ, HL, and BJ count D.
Scrimmage kicks are always times when 12 on the field can happen. Of course it dose not help when the coach runs out a another D player because he thinks there is 10 out there.
We do not say anything to the coach, like only ten out here. Its their job not ours.

[MIcoach]

who's job is it to call the illegal substitution foul?

a couple of weeks ago, we had a head ref who refused to call it and i actually had to say something to the side official about it before a flag was thrown. this happened twice. i asked the side official if it was supposed to be an automatic (breaking with 12 in huddle), and he said yes and no, they will give the off. time to call a timeout, but if they dont call a timeout then the head official is supposed to throw the flag.

i understand in little league waiting for a timeout to be called, but how long should you wait before flagging the play? each time the ball was snapped and like stated before the side judge threw the flag and blew it dead before the head ref moved.

eprov, what level do you officiate in? most refs in the little league levels will let you know when you have 10, or even 12. some will even hold up the play till you get enough on the field. i can understand not saying anything in the high school level, but with younger kids sometimes it can get confusing for them, and they dont always pay attention to what is going on out on the field.