Illegal Participation

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by cougar729

Havent had this come up or anything, just was thinking about it.

Has anyone ever thought about the way to enforce illegal participation...when say there are 12 Team B members on a play (yeah, I know we nail them with Illegal Sub. before the snap, but nevertheless...) and Team A gains 16 or more yards on the play.

For enforcement we say... accept and we give them 15 from the previous spot, or decline and take the ball where you were tackled. In this case (more than what the penalty is giving them)

What is to say that it's the 12th man that made the tackle, and that A would have had more yards on the play, had the defense only been playing with 11.

Seems like a special enforcement simliar to Roughing the passer would be appropriate for a situation like that.

I think that you have a good point here, maybe the runner would have scored a TD if they would have only had 11 players. Maybe it should be taked on the the end of the play.

[MIcoach]

in our games this year we have had this called 3 different ways.

first was a 10 yd penalty and replay the down

second was a 5 yd penalty (dont think the ref knew what he was doing, he made alot of other calls like this) and replay the down

third was this weekend and it was a 15 yd penalty at the end of the run.

so if i am reading what you all have put down here, it should be a 15 yd penalty enforced from the original LOS, unless the team declines, in which case it would be the result of the play?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by MIcoach

in our games this year we have had this called 3 different ways.

first was a 10 yd penalty and replay the down

second was a 5 yd penalty (dont think the ref knew what he was doing, he made alot of other calls like this) and replay the down

third was this weekend and it was a 15 yd penalty at the end of the run.

so if i am reading what you all have put down here, it should be a 15 yd penalty enforced from the original LOS, unless the team declines, in which case it would be the result of the play?

If they kill the play just before the snap(sometimes sounds like AT the snap), it would be 5 and replay. if the play continues, it's 15 from the original LOS (or decline).

Someone did mention here a few weeks back that IP in their area was 10 yards, but I don't remember if that was HS, LL, Canadian, or something else.

[bossman72]

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

10 yards.

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Can someone explain to me the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation?

Illegal substitution can be a live ball or a dead ball foul, but does not involve particpation. Illegal participation always involves participation and is always a live ball foul. The prime example is 12 players on the field. If the play is killed before the snap, it is illegal substitution. If the snap takes place and all 12 players participate, it is illegal participation.

[ref49873]

If you observe 12 men on either A or B prior to the snap and no one is making an attempt to leave the field, should you let the play go and enforce as IP, or kill it at the snap and enforce as IS?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For both Federation and NCAA, this is supposed to be flagged as a dead ball illegal substitution foul.

[eprov]

IMO, If you know there is 12 on the field before you must call it. Why would you let the play go off. We stress counting before the snap. Ref and U count O, LJ, HL, and BJ count D.
Scrimmage kicks are always times when 12 on the field can happen. Of course it dose not help when the coach runs out a another D player because he thinks there is 10 out there.
We do not say anything to the coach, like only ten out here. Its their job not ours.