What is a Catch? :confused:

[dumbref]

Another play in the Auburn – LSU game (that has not received as much attention as the DPI no-call) occurred in the first quarter. LSU, 4th and short, threw a pass to the wing in the flats. The receiver in full stride (appears to) secure the ball in his hands then his right foot touches the ground; Puts the ball against his chest as his left foot touches the ground; head and shoulders begin to turn up field and is in full stride with the right leg again (foot almost on the ground) when the AU player stripes the ball from behind. The Official on the field ruled catch and a fumble OOB – had his bean bag on the ground and marked the OOB spot in advance of the line to gain. I know the NCAA has a 4th down fumble rule, but I think that would bring the ball back to the end of the run which was also beyond the line to gain.

The play was reviewed and overturned and explained as no-catch! As an Auburn fan I was thrilled! As an official, I was totally confused by what these guys constitute a catch. I have watched this play frame by frame from three different angles and have yet to see why the official was over ruled. The receiver was in his third stride with the ball with no apparent bobble when he was stripped of the ball. If it was not a catch, every HS and College official in America needs to ask the same question - What is a catch???

[bluezebra]

...when the AU player stripes the ball...

I thought the NCAA didn't put stripes on the football anymore.

Bob

[GPC2]

dumbref,

as your name states, you really must be dumb to be an auburn fan.

Just kidding.

I am an LSU fan, and that play in addition to two other plays really concerned me. There was a play that Auburn stopped LSU on fourth down (it may very well have been the play right before the play you reference), but the play didn't actually happen because Auburn called time out prior to the ball being snapped. Well - Auburn had 12 men on the field - how in the hell did the BJ, SJ, [I]and[I] FJ miss that?

Also the seeming inconsistency with the two PI plays still have me confused. To me it's one way or the other - not both ways.

That game really was a hard fought game with two evenly matched teams, and I am in no way saying that the officiating swung the game in Auburn's favor, but I certainly think that officiating crew has some questions to answer.

Now in the Oklahoma/Oregon game - WOW. The replay official from that game should be removed from all future replay duties. Oklahoma lost the game because he - in the face of clear visual evidence - incorrectly ruled in Oregon's favor - not once, but twice on a game winning touchdown drive. Simply awful.

I guess I am a football purist - I am one of the few people I know that HATES instant replay of any kind. I think officials get calls right 99% of the time, and to interrupt a game for the 1% of the time where they are wrong is bad - and then to compound it by still getting it wrong after replaying it is atrocious.

Sorry all for the rant.

dumbref, good luck to your Tigers the rest of the way...

[mcrowder]

It's not illegal for the defense to have (before the snap, obviously) 12 men on the field. What was there for FJ, BJ, or SJ to catch?

I thought the Aub/LSU play was a catch too ... but perhaps there was another angle that either showed a bobble (thus no possession) or even a foot out of bounds, that we didn't get to see on TV.

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

It's not illegal for the defense to have (before the snap, obviously) 12 men on the field. What was there for FJ, BJ, or SJ to catch?

I checked this after the game in my NCAA rule book (unfortunately I don't have it with me right now, so I can't provide rule number reference), but it clearly states that if the officials are certain that there are twelve B players on the field they should kill the ball, and it will be a five yard penalty (for Illegal Substitution, I believe). If they are not sure, they let the play go on and recount after the play is over and penalize 15 yards for Illegal Participation.

For some reason, the play was never actually stopped for Auburn's time out, and no flags were thrown either pre-snap, or dead ball after the play was over. The covering officials simply missed the fact that Auburn had 12 men on defense.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

...when the AU player stripes the ball...

I thought the NCAA didn't put stripes on the football anymore.

Bob

I left a mark any way!

[GPC2]

Does anybody know if the replay officials are actual, or ex- officials? I've never seen anything saying who these "officials" are.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by GPC2

I checked this after the game in my NCAA rule book (unfortunately I don't have it with me right now, so I can't provide rule number reference), but it clearly states that if the officials are certain that there are twelve B players on the field they should kill the ball, and it will be a five yard penalty (for Illegal Substitution, I believe). If they are not sure, they let the play go on and recount after the play is over and penalize 15 yards for Illegal Participation.

For some reason, the play was never actually stopped for Auburn's time out, and no flags were thrown either pre-snap, or dead ball after the play was over. The covering officials simply missed the fact that Auburn had 12 men on defense.

I am not aware of any rule that clearly states any such thing. It's certainly not a foul the instant 12 men are out there. Clinics have taught us (esp at lower levels) to kill it and IS if it's apparent the defense isn't going to fix the problem - that's preferable to the IP. But you surely give them time to get the 12th guy off the field or call time out.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by GPC2

dumbref,

as your name states, you really must be dumb to be an auburn fan.

Just kidding.

I am an LSU fan, and that play in addition to two other plays really concerned me. There was a play that Auburn stopped LSU on fourth down (it may very well have been the play right before the play you reference), but the play didn't actually happen because Auburn called time out prior to the ball being snapped. Well - Auburn had 12 men on the field - how in the hell did the BJ, SJ, [I]and[I] FJ miss that?

Also the seeming inconsistency with the two PI plays still have me confused. To me it's one way or the other - not both ways.

That game really was a hard fought game with two evenly matched teams, and I am in no way saying that the officiating swung the game in Auburn's favor, but I certainly think that officiating crew has some questions to answer.

Now in the Oklahoma/Oregon game - WOW. The replay official from that game should be removed from all future replay duties. Oklahoma lost the game because he - in the face of clear visual evidence - incorrectly ruled in Oregon's favor - not once, but twice on a game winning touchdown drive. Simply awful.

I guess I am a football purist - I am one of the few people I know that HATES instant replay of any kind. I think officials get calls right 99% of the time, and to interrupt a game for the 1% of the time where they are wrong is bad - and then to compound it by still getting it wrong after replaying it is atrocious.

Sorry all for the rant.

dumbref, good luck to your Tigers the rest of the way...

I'm dumb for being a Ref - not because I'm an AU fan! And thanks - it was a hell of a game! I'm glade there is no way we play you again this year!

I know AU called time out on the play - the TV talking heads said there 12 on the the field. I can neither confirm or deny that point. The officials just could not stop the play before granting the TO.

I have no problem with either PI calls. The one called on LSU, the AU player could have made a play on the ball. The no call on AU, there was no way the LSU player could have caught the ball after the tip. And I am trying not to look through orange tented glasses.

[RoyGardner]

Under NCAA rules it is an IS foul if B player #12 is on the field for more than 3 seconds after B breaks the defensive huddle if they have one, or for more than 3 seconds if they do not huddle. The snap being imminent has no bearing on the rule.

See AR-3-5-2-IV (at FI-16 in the 2006 on-line version of the rules).

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by GPC2

Does anybody know if the replay officials are actual, or ex- officials? I've never seen anything saying who these "officials" are.

Most, if not all, are retired offiicals in the SEC. I do not know who the replay official was for this game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GPC2

Does anybody know if the replay officials are actual, or ex- officials? I've never seen anything saying who these "officials" are.

I can only speak for the Big Ten and the MAC. The technical advisors are usually the ones that are the "replay officials." From what I remember this is also the case in most conferences (I cannot see why it would not be that way) from a story I saw on ESPN last year. I am sure there are exceptions. I know in the major Bowl games the TAs are former officials.

Peace

[mcrowder]

Roy, you more than anyone else send me back to my car for a rulebook, because I know you know what you're talking about, and you've proven right much more often than not.

However, can you quote the rule here from which you are getting that interp? From just what you typed alone, there would be almost no way B could EVER initiate a substitution, as even the briefest "Johnny, go in for Joey" is pretty likely to have 12 men on the field for more than 3 seconds. Seems to me there MUST be more to it than just what you've typed.

[Forksref]

We use a rule of thumb that the replaced player must start to leave the HUDDLE in 3-5 seconds once the sub has entered the huddle. Depending on whether the player is a back or lineman it may take a while to reach the sideline. If it takes a long time we expect that he will be an FB umpire some day!

[dumbref]

Back to the subject - What is a catch? This was a wham-bam play that we will all face at some time. And we all know the "when in doubt" rule of thumb. In this case, I thought the official made a correct call as I understand the rules. Should it have been over-turned?