Confused

[GuyMan]

Umpiring a 9/10 year old game.(DIXIE LEAGUE) Runner on first and third, 1 out. BAtter hits a deep fly ball to center field, runner on third leaves the bag as soon as the ball is hit (no tag) . Ball is caught by outfielder, and runner from third has now crossed the plate. His coach is telling him to go back to third, he retouches the plate on his way back to third, before he reaches third, the throw from the outfielder goes into the dugout, he then turns and heads back to home. I call dead ball. Should i have let him score and put the runner from first on third? As you can see i am real confused.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by GuyMan

Umpiring a 9/10 year old game.(DIXIE LEAGUE) Runner on first and third, 1 out. BAtter hits a deep fly ball to center field, runner on third leaves the bag as soon as the ball is hit (no tag) . Ball is caught by outfielder, and runner from third has now crossed the plate. His coach is telling him to go back to third, he retouches the plate on his way back to third, before he reaches third, the throw from the outfielder goes into the dugout, he then turns and heads back to home. I call dead ball. Should i have let him score and put the runner from first on third? As you can see i am real confused.

Once the runner touches home, he cannot retouch and go back to third.
A tag of third is an out. after the ball goes into DBT it creates an appeal play situation. Run scores if defense does not appeal properly.
And runer on first does go to third.

[RPatrino]

Throws from the outfield are TOT awards. First play in the infield is TOP. Second play in the infield and any outfield plays are TOP.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by PWL

In this case you should have awarded R3 home and R1 third. You call time and make your award. I believe this is a TOP award. The runners are still required to properly tag and run the bases legally. It is up to the defense to appeal the illegal actions of R3. Defense does this call R3 out, third out, and no run scores. They can also appeal on R1 and the run would not count also if he did not properly run the bases.

It was a throw from the outfield, so it's a TOT award. Sounds like the runner had already crossed home before the throw, now it's just a matter of defensive execution until ball goes to DBT then a proper appeal.

[oneonone]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Once the runner touches home, he cannot retouch and go back to third.
A tag of third is an out. after the ball goes into DBT it creates an appeal play situation. Run scores if defense does not appeal properly.
And runer on first does go to third.

After touching the plate the ruling that he may not return to third...Is this ruling unique to the touching of the plate. lets say R1 was on second, doesn't tag up and makes it to and rounds third before realizing the catch. Can R1 retouch 3rd and go back to second?

[UmpJM]

GuyMan,

This is actually a deceptively complicated question.

First, on a legally caught batted fly ball any runners are required to retouch their Time of Pitch (TOP) base as or after the in flight batted ball is first touched by a fielder.

Second, when a ball thrown by an outfielder goes out of play (into DBT) any runners at the time are awarded two bases from the last base touched or passed at the time the errant throw left the fielder's hand (as opposed to where they were when that throw actually entered DBT) - that is, it is a Time Of Throw (TOT) award.

Thirdly, the fact that the ball became "dead" does not relieve any runners of their obligation to run the bases legally - if they were required to retouch at the time the ball entered DBT, they are STILL required to retouch, and whether advancing or returning, they are required to touch the bases in sequence.

Fourthly, a runner who has touched home most certainly IS allowed to go back and touch 3B (assuming he is under a requirement to do so) as long as no "following" runner has subsequently touched home and he had first touched home while the ball was still live/in play.

Should a runner fail to comply with these requirements, he is "in jeopardy" of being called out if the defense executes a properly constituted appeal of his baserunning infraction once the ball is again made live.

Now Dixie Youth Baseball uses Official Baseball Rules (OBR) as its "foundation" ruleset. A couple of the points above would be different if Dixie used High School (aka FED) rules as the foundation ruleset.

So, how does all of this apply to your situation?

It sounds like the R3 never actually made it all the way back to 3B to complete his "retouch" requirement. If that is true, you "provisionally" allow the run to score and wait to see whether the defense appeals. If they do so properly, you call him out and negate his run. If he did go back and retouch 3B (which he is certainly allowed to do ), or the defense fails to appeal before the next pitch or play, his run stands.

You never said where the R1 was when the throw left the fielder's hand or whether or not he had fulfilled his retouch requirement. Ultimately he is under the same obligations, and it is most likely that the proper award is 3B.

There is one school of thought that says if he were already past 2B at the TOT, you would provisionally award him home as well, and then, in the event he went back and retouched 1B (while the ball was dead), you would adjust the award to be an award of 3B.

Make sense?

JM

Edited to add the following:

I see a number of others have posted while I was composing my reply. Since there seems to be a number of different and differing statements on the proper ruling, let me offer my $.02.

NIUmp50 asserts that the runner may not go back to retouch 3B once he has touched home. While this would be true under FED rules (whether the ball was live or dead when he did so), since Dixie plays under OBR-based rules his assertion is incorrect.

PWL says this is a TOP award. He's kind of right and kind of wrong. Technically, a throw into DBT by an outfielder is a TOT award; however, with runners obviously required to retouch on the catch, it might as well be a TOP award. In a 9/10 game, that is certainly how I would rule it. Though there is a school of thought that says if the R2 was past 2B at the TOT, you would first award him home. PWL also mentions that if the R3 fails to legally complete his retouch obligation, AND the defense subsequently successfully appeals, no run could score on the play. That is correct. He also asserts that if the R1 failed to complete his retouch obligation and the defense properly appealed, no run could score on the play. I disagree. If the R3 did complete his retouch OR the defense never appealed his failure to do so, his run WOULD score, even if the defense successfully appealed the R1's failure to retouch.

RPatrino, I'm guessing, just made a typo in his last TOP & I'm pretty sure he meant TOT because that would make his statement correct & he pretty much always knows what he's talking about when he posts..

[oneonone]

Thank CoachJM. Very helpful and appreciated insight.

[RPatrino]

I believe PWL is refering to the FED definition of a "play". I don't think it however relates to throws from the outfield, but on plays in the infield.

For example, R2 and Batter hits a ground ball to F6. F6 fields the ball and takes two steps toward the runner at 2nd, then throws past 1b into DBT. Place the runners.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

There is one school of thought that says if he were already past 2B at the TOT, you would provisionally award him home as well, and then, in the event he went back and retouched 1B (while the ball was dead), you would adjust the award to be an award of 3B.

I would hope it's not quite that subjective.

I believe according to OBR (I don't have any materials in front of me, but am looking at MLB's Official Rules online), the award on an overthrow is dictated by "the position" of the runner at the time the ball leaves the fielder's hand. I would assume that "position" is dictated by last base touched, or assumed to have touched, and not last base legally touched. I know that the rule in softball has the phrase "last base touched" in it - note the absence of the word "legally." I'm sure some of the baseball umpire gurus on here could clarify with regard to the exact wording of the OBR.

This means that the runner from 3B is awarded home (and can still retouch home plate on their way to 3B, since no succeeding runner has crossed), and the runner from 1B is (unless they had touched 2B before the throw was released, with or without tagging up at 1B, in which case they would be awarded home) awarded 3B. The runners are then required to legally touch all bases necessary to complete their baserunning responsibilities. If they do not, the defense has the ability to appeal.

This removes all "school of thought" subjectivity in applying the rules and awarding bases.

Knowledgeable baseball umpires - is this the same in baseball, like I hope it is?

[UmpJM]

HawkeyeCubP,

I certainly agree with your point regarding "position" rather than "legally touched".

My "two schools of thought" comment is in regards to the assertion found in J/R that if a runner has obviously failed to retouch, the award should be made from his "original" or TOP base, while the MLBUM (and I believe, though I'm not sure the JEA) says you make the provisional award from the runner's "literal" position at TOT and then adjust if he retouches.

If the baserunning infraction is NOT "obvious", both agree that the award is from the runner's position at TOT, where the progress to that point was achieved "legally" or not.

As a matter of personal preference, the J/R opinion makes sense to me, especially for "youth" ball. The more "youthy", the more it makes sense - to me.

JM

[UmpJM]

PWL,

In regards to your TOP vs. TOT point, I basically agree under FED rules. If the runner had reached/passed a base beyond his TOP base at the time the errant throw was released, and then manages to return past that base before the ball actually becomes dead, his award is made from his TOP or "original" base.

In regards to the scoring question, I would say that the only time a "third out appeal" (or advantageous fourth out, for that matter) is "run-nullifying" is under the following conditions:

1. A runner who scored is successfully appealed (obviously, his run is nullifed)

2. A runner who scored had other runners score behind him and was successfully appealed (both the appealed runner and any following runners who had "apparently" scored have their runs nullified)

3. A forced runner is successfully appealed for "missing" his "forced to" base or a BR is successfuly appealed for "missing" 1B - no run can score on the play.

Under all other conditions, the appeal is treated as a "timing play" for purposes of run-nullification.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by GuyMan

Umpiring a 9/10 year old game.(DIXIE LEAGUE) Runner on first and third, 1 out. BAtter hits a deep fly ball to center field, runner on third leaves the bag as soon as the ball is hit (no tag) . Ball is caught by outfielder, and runner from third has now crossed the plate. His coach is telling him to go back to third, he retouches the plate on his way back to third, before he reaches third, the throw from the outfielder goes into the dugout, he then turns and heads back to home. I call dead ball. Should i have let him score and put the runner from first on third? As you can see i am real confused.

As understand the play he has tagged HP on his way back to 3B before the ball goes dead. If he turns and heads for home allow him to score and advance runner on 1B to 3B.

Now if defense does a legal appeal that he did not tag up, call him out for not retouching. If they don't appeal the score counts.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

NIUmp50 asserts that the runner may not go back to retouch 3B once he has touched home. While this would be true under FED rules (whether the ball was live or dead when he did so), since Dixie plays under OBR-based rules his assertion is incorrect.

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

OBR: A runner can return to retouch as long as he doesn't advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, R3 can return to touch third whether he was beyond the plate or had already retouched the plate on his return to third.

FED: A runner can return to touch as long as he isn't at or beyond the next base AT THE TIME the ball becomes dead and as long as he doesn't advance AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, If R3 was still beyond the plate, he couldn't (legally) return to third. If R3 had retouched the plate on his way back to third, he would be allowed to complete the return.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

There is one school of thought that says if he were already past 2B at the TOT, you would provisionally award him home as well, and then, in the event he went back and retouched 1B (while the ball was dead), you would adjust the award to be an award of 3B.

This would be the school of thought endorsed by the 2003 MLB Umpires' manual...I have not read a more recent version of that book, so I don't know if they've changed it.

PBUC, of course, had a difference school of thought that same year.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

....

bob jenkins,

Thank you. I misspoke and stand corrected.

JM