Stop the clock?

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by RonRef

The original post says they (HL and BJ) were not under the GP when the ball was kicked, call me crazy but during a FG it helps to have officials under the GP. What is the avg. time between plays? I thought I read some where that the BIG 10 was at anywhere from 12-16 seconds on avg.

I agree it helps to be in proper position - that's why I'd stop the clock until they got there. The "problem" in this play is not with A - they can get the play off (and did) nor with B. It's making sure the officials are ready. There are three choices - 1) let A kick with the crew out of position; 2) Don't let A kick (hold up RFP) or 3) Stop the clock, get in position and then let A go.

I don't like 1 because the crew could miss the call and I don't like 2 because it denies A a shot at a score that they can (and did) have. In this particular play, I think 3 is the best option.

PS - Even in a hurry up, we should work at a reasonable pace. We don't need to throw players off of a pile or fling the ball all over just to help A. But if, using our proper pacing, everyone else is ready but the BJ & LJ, then I think it's best to stop and let them get in position.

[JasonTX]

When the previous play was over, there were 10 seconds on a running clock left and team A was sending subs in and rushing to the line, right? Under NCAA there won't be enough time for A to snap the ball. By rule, Team B must be given enough time place its own subs into the game. By the time that is done and I have gone through my routine of making eye contact with each official, the time would have expired. While Team B is given the time they need to put in their subs, the BJ and LJ could be racing to the posts. Next time Team A will just spike the ball.

[FootballRef05]

Under NCAA the U is required to stand over the ball until he is certain that B has had a resonable about of time to see the changes by A and react, nothing about stopping the clock, chances are in NCAA the play would never have gotten off.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by FootballRef05

Under NCAA the U is required to stand over the ball until he is certain that B has had a resonable about of time to see the changes by A and react, nothing about stopping the clock, chances are in NCAA the play would never have gotten off.

I would challenge any high school team to rush their field goal unit on the field line up and kick the ball with only 10 seconds left without a motion penalty on the play or get the kick off without time expiring.

[FootballRef05]

Originally Posted by RonRef

I would challenge any high school team to rush their field goal unit on the field line up and kick the ball with only 10 seconds left without a motion penalty on the play or get the kick off without time expiring.

Great Point Ron

[RoyGardner]

I don't think the question is if it could be done. According to the posted play it was done and without any procedural flags. The question asked was should the clock have been stopped since the only ones not ready were the officials. If both teams can sub and be in position for an attempted field goal, which they actually did according to the posted play, then we should be blowing the whistle and getting in position to correctly officiate the play and get the call right.

Were not giving anyone extra time, were making them wait for us to get into position, both teams are already in position and ready to snap.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by RoyGardner

I don't think the question is if it could be done. According to the posted play it was done and without any procedural flags. The question asked was should the clock have been stopped since the only ones not ready were the officials. If both teams can sub and be in position for an attempted field goal, which they actually did according to the posted play, then we should be blowing the whistle and getting in position to correctly officiate the play and get the call right.

Were not giving anyone extra time, were making them wait for us to get into position, both teams are already in position and ready to snap.

I would like to see this game film of this play, I would bet a game check that they were not set on the kick. With all the confusion on the crew during the last 20 seconds there was probably a penalty out there that should have been called.

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by RonRef

I would like to see this game film of this play, I would bet a game check that they were not set on the kick. With all the confusion on the crew during the last 20 seconds there was probably a penalty out there that should have been called.

I was the HL I will admit that I didn't have time to accurately count players on the LOS, but other than that, there were no other procedural type penalties (illegal motion/illegal snap). It was truly amazing to see how fast the kicking team got on the field, got set, snapped, and kicked the ball. I wish I had the video to share, but I don't.

There still seems to be no consensus on what to do here, but I must admit I am hearing some very intriguing points on both sides. I originally felt that NO WAY should we stop the clock to let A get the kick off, but I guess I am now seeing it both ways (although, I still am leaning towards delaying the RFP until all officials are in position - which would make the game clock run out).

This question has been elevated to our State Director of Officials, so we shall see what he says...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GPC2

I was the HL I will admit that I didn't have time to accurately count players on the LOS, but other than that, there were no other procedural type penalties (illegal motion/illegal snap). It was truly amazing to see how fast the kicking team got on the field, got set, snapped, and kicked the ball. I wish I had the video to share, but I don't.

There still seems to be no consensus on what to do here, but I must admit I am hearing some very intriguing points on both sides. I originally felt that NO WAY should we stop the clock to let A get the kick off, but I guess I am now seeing it both ways (although, I still am leaning towards delaying the RFP until all officials are in position - which would make the game clock run out).

This question has been elevated to our State Director of Officials, so we shall see what he says...

I'm interested in all this talk about pace since I'm a WH and this is one of my most important jobs.

There's no way we use the same pace for every play. Most of the game, the pace is what I would describe as almost leisurely. The offense is huddling, we're getting the ball spotted, and I'm giving the RFP. I'm not in a hurry, but neither is anyone else.

At the end of the game during a hurry-up, I know I'm trying to get the ball spotted quickly and making sure we're not delaying the offense while not putting undue demands on the defense.

It's one of the things the NFL officials do extremely well. They get the ball spotted quickly for a spike/play.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I'm interested in all this talk about pace since I'm a WH and this is one of my most important jobs.

There's no way we use the same pace for every play. Most of the game, the pace is what I would describe as almost leisurely. The offense is huddling, we're getting the ball spotted, and I'm giving the RFP. I'm not in a hurry, but neither is anyone else.

At the end of the game during a hurry-up, I know I'm trying to get the ball spotted quickly and making sure we're not delaying the offense while not putting undue demands on the defense.

It's one of the things the NFL officials do extremely well. They get the ball spotted quickly for a spike/play.

In the NFL the play clock starts when the previous play becomes dead, so the NFL you must get the ball spotted because the play clock is already running. For NCAA and HS we decide when the clock starts. We aren't taking our sweet time but we definitley aren't going to speed things up just so they can get another play off. The key is to set your pace and it will vary, but if you create a routine then the teams have to adjust to you and know that is the same routine you'll follow. Depending on the play it may take longer to make it ready. My routine is, ball becomes dead, we relay the ball to the Ump and he spots the ball, I make eye contact with each official. I look at LJ, then at the U, then to the BJ and finish with HL, then I make the ball ready. I'd estimate it will take me about 4 secs. to look at all 4 officials. We keep the same speed we started with.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

In the NFL the play clock starts when the previous play becomes dead, so the NFL you must get the ball spotted because the play clock is already running. For NCAA and HS we decide when the clock starts. We aren't taking our sweet time but we definitley aren't going to speed things up just so they can get another play off. The key is to set your pace and it will vary, but if you create a routine then the teams have to adjust to you and know that is the same routine you'll follow. Depending on the play it may take longer to make it ready. My routine is, ball becomes dead, we relay the ball to the Ump and he spots the ball, I make eye contact with each official. I look at LJ, then at the U, then to the BJ and finish with HL, then I make the ball ready. I'd estimate it will take me about 4 secs. to look at all 4 officials. We keep the same speed we started with.

Jason, on MOST plays in NCAA and HS, the game clock is moving between plays just as you describe in the NFL, and just as it is in the OP. I would say the urgency to get the ball spotted at our level in a sitch like this is identical to the urgency to get the ball spotted in the NFL. I doubt the urgency has ANYTHING to do with the playclock, and EVERYTHING to do with the game clock.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Jason, on MOST plays in NCAA and HS, the game clock is moving between plays just as you describe in the NFL, and just as it is in the OP. I would say the urgency to get the ball spotted at our level in a sitch like this is identical to the urgency to get the ball spotted in the NFL. I doubt the urgency has ANYTHING to do with the playclock, and EVERYTHING to do with the game clock.

I'm just saying that all the officials have pre-snap responsibilities and they happen before the ball is ready for play. If my officials aren't in position to officiate then the ball will not be made ready. If I'm speeding up, then essentially I am assisting Team A in getting a play. I will remain neutral to both teams. Team B just made a good play by forcing A into a situation that may run the clock out and that is a situation that Team B earned. By me rushing to get the ball up there so A can snap again has just taken away the play that Team B earned. Don't change or rush your pre-snap routine just to suit Team A.

How would you handle this situation? With Team A leading by 2 pts. team A runs a play to the A15 and is stopped short of the first down. Team B is out of timeouts. With the clock running and is at 30 seconds. Will you rush to spot the ball so that the RFP is given with more than 25 seconds so that A must snap the ball again or will you keep your normal pace and most likely A won't snap the ball again. If you rush then now you are assisting team B by forcing A to snap again.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

I'm just saying that all the officials have pre-snap responsibilities and they happen before the ball is ready for play. If my officials aren't in position to officiate then the ball will not be made ready. If I'm speeding up, then essentially I am assisting Team A in getting a play. I will remain neutral to both teams. Team B just made a good play by forcing A into a situation that may run the clock out and that is a situation that Team B earned. By me rushing to get the ball up there so A can snap again has just taken away the play that Team B earned. Don't change or rush your pre-snap routine just to suit Team A.

How would you handle this situation? With Team A leading by 2 pts. team A runs a play to the A15 and is stopped short of the first down. Team B is out of timeouts. With the clock running and is at 30 seconds. Will you rush to spot the ball so that the RFP is given with more than 25 seconds so that A must snap the ball again or will you keep your normal pace and most likely A won't snap the ball again. If you rush then now you are assisting team B by forcing A to snap again.

You're changing the play. The OFFENSE decides how quickly they want to play. It's called a hurry-up OFFENSE for a reason.

All I know is that in my world, if the offense is set and ready and the WH takes 4 seconds to make eye contact with the crew with a running clock before signalling the RFP and lets the clock run out, there's gonna be hell to pay. And rightfully so, IMO.

On a first down with the clock stopped, I'll take a bit more time.

[JasonTX]

We've pretty much beat this one to a pulp. You guys may do things differently in Fed, but NCAA has a rule that is specific on this issue. If you've been keeping a good pace throughout the game and then all of a sudden the last play of the game you frantically rush because time is running out, then you didn't follow what the rules says below about being consistent.

Rule 3-4-2-a: The ball shall be declared ready for play consistently
throughout the game by the referee when the officials are in position.
Consuming more than 25 seconds to put the ball in play after it is
declared ready for play is an illegal delay.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

We've pretty much beat this one to a pulp. You guys may do things differently in Fed, but NCAA has a rule that is specific on this issue. If you've been keeping a good pace throughout the game and then all of a sudden the last play of the game you frantically rush because time is running out, then you didn't follow what the rules says below about being consistent.

Rule 3-4-2-a: The ball shall be declared ready for play consistently
throughout the game by the referee when the officials are in position.
Consuming more than 25 seconds to put the ball in play after it is
declared ready for play is an illegal delay.

Jason, this is a game management issue, NOT a rules issue. Frankly, I don't CARE what the rulebook says -- and this can't simply be dismissed as a NFHS/NCAA difference.

I've seen plenty of NCAA crews (working actual NCAA games) hustle like crazy at the end of games to get the ball spotted to be played or spiked.

Not hustling at the right time to get the ball RFP, where I've officiated, would be seen as a remarkable lack of understanding of the game.