Roughing the Passer and Pass Interference

[booker227]

Mike, this is a respectful forum, so when you use caps like that, it's disrespectful to anyone responding. We're not children, so, please don't yell at us like we are.
I find it a very simple and easy way for the captain to understand his decision, and have encountered few if any problems.
Only on a lower level or youth game will I try to pursuade the captain.
Rule 10-1-1
When a foul occurs during a live ball, the referee shall, at the end of the down, notify both captains. He shall inform the captain of the offended team regarding the the rights of penalty acceptance and shll indicate to him the number of the ensuing down, distance to be gained, and status of the ball for each available choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I've read this section over and over, and nowhere in it does it allow for the officials to make the call for the captain. Which is what in essence you are doing.
Maybe your in too big of a hurry.
I've been on the sidelines for college and professional games and have ovcerheard discussions between officials and captains regarding penalty enforcement, and they do it
strictly by the book, and they're the best and most
respected.

[mcrowder]

Lighten up, Francis.

Putting a single word in all caps is not "disrespectful" or even yelling (putting whole sentences in caps is yelling). It's the way I type to stress a word.

Good grief.

As to the topic at hand, I don't work FED rules. The issue doesn't arise in games I work (except, as mentioned above, when I work with a referee who learned his craft in Fedlandia, and will not change his ways).

I'm not in any hurry - my pace is good. I just think it's a waste of time to "discuss" anything when there is no doubt at all about the outcome of the "discussion". (Note that I'm not saying that your mechanics are wrong as far as the rule goes - I'm saying the rule is silly)

And the next time I see a college official ask a captain whether he wants 1st and 5 instead of 1st and 10 will be the first time.

[TXMike]

Like I said, if you want to rely on the book telling you to do it so you do it without thinking about why (i.e. the INTENT), then so be it. But this is what the NCAA book says about penalties:
==============
How and When Completed
ARTICLE 1. a. A penalty is completed when it is accepted, declined or canceled according to rule, or when the choice is obvious to the referee.
=====================
Does not require captains be given a choice.

Next time you are on the sideline at a college or NFL game, watch what happens when Team A false starts. Count the number of times the R goes to the defense for an option. You will not need and fingers to do the counting.

Is there a logical reason for advising when choice is obvious?

[Kirby]

Fed R here.

I do not give options when it is obvious. If the captain comes to me, I tell him what we are doing very briefly. If the captain is not near me I give my signal while my U is marking off the penalty and then blow the RFP.

[Kirby]

Dale Smith said:

By the way, because the last run ended beyond the neutral zone and there was no change in possession, the RTP foul is enforced from the dead ball spot not the spot of the foul.

Dale, in what situation would roughing the passer ever be enforced from the spot of the foul?

[Dale Smith]

Originally posted by Kirby
Dale Smith said:

By the way, because the last run ended beyond the neutral zone and there was no change in possession, the RTP foul is enforced from the dead ball spot not the spot of the foul.

Dale, in what situation would roughing the passer ever be enforced from the spot of the foul?

I can't think of one. I was responding to Ed Hickland’s first post on this thread where he said “to enforce the penalty from the spot where the ball was caught.”

[booker227]

TX, Remember the original post? It wasn't about encroachment, false start, sideline warning, illegal substitution or other obvious situations. It concerned a complicated multifoul live ball situation where the offended team catain needed to know his complete options. Too wordy? Yes. But not a place to take a shortcut.
The post read as if the situation took place during a high school game, and not on a college field, which underscores my point eve more so.
As to you snide commetn concerning my standing on the sidleines.
If you were to look closely at the crew's mechanics, after a penalty flag has been thrown, you will see that they confer together prior to R going to the offending team captain, often for a lengthy time. Why?
I have several colleagues who work college, from D-3 through 1-AA, and they do this because it is the correct and professional thing to do, especially ln multi-foul situations. First, to make sure what they have is exactly what they have, and this often involves disagreement. Once they aggree on the penalty, they discuss the options and the results, and when they agree that what they have is what they have, R goes to the offended captain with his options which he describes fully. Then the captain makes his decision. The crew doesn't care how long it takes, but only that they get it right.

Why should it be any different on a Friday night? It shouldn't!

[TXMike]

I'll tell you what, if you think a live ball DPI and RTP combined with a completion and followed by a dead ball UC is complicated than you need a few more years of studying. That is a "no brainer". I am not saying anything about not getting everything straight with your crew but once everything has been reported to you, and you give your prelim signals, it SHOULD be immediately obvious what to do and you should instruct the U as to what to do, give your final signals and drive on. Not all "simple" ones are obvious, i.e. 4th and 10 at the B45 and A gets a delay of game. B may or may not want the 5 yards. SO in that case, by all means talk to the captains. All I am saying is do not be a automoton who never thinks. If you are thinking as you do something you realize there is no need to give the kid a chance to screw up.

[mcrowder]

booker, are you really saying that the OP was one in which the options needed to be explained?

"Son, you can accept the RTP, which puts the ball on your 35, or you can accept the DPI, which puts the ball on your 32. Which do you want?"

Really?

Good grief.

ONE of the two fouls gives them the ball further downfield than the other. Sure - get together with the officials, figure out what everyone has, and where the enforcements will put the ball, and then Signal and walk off appropriately. (That's what they'd do on Saturday, despite your allegations otherwise).

[Texas Aggie]

>>Mike, this is a respectful forum, so when you use caps like that, it's disrespectful to anyone responding. We're not children, so, please don't yell at us like we are.<<

Oh, please. He was using caps on one word for emphases, not to be disrespectful. Its patently silly to think otherwise, unless you know a better way to emphasize one word in a sentence on a message board.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
>>Mike, this is a respectful forum, so when you use caps like that, it's disrespectful to anyone responding. We're not children, so, please don't yell at us like we are.<<

Oh, please. He was using caps on one word for emphases, not to be disrespectful. Its patently silly to think otherwise, unless you know a better way to emphasize one word in a sentence on a message board.

It isn't impossible to emphasize a single word. But a person needs to be fairly versed in the tools All kidding aside, one word in all caps is not yelling.

According the NF rules, captains should be consulted for ALL penalties (except double fouls). If a captain's decision is obvious, the R should quickly inform him. Do all NF Referees follow the letter of the rule? Probably not and I don't think it hurts anything, but the rule is there to support those who do.

MY EDIT: I am not one who always talks to the captains. I don't even consult captains when we have a dead ball foul prior to the snap (like a false start or encroachment).

My conversation with the captains gets more involved as the choice gets less obvious. If the choice is especially difficult, I will walk a captain over to his sideline so the coach can also hear the options. Ultimately, the coach is the one who makes the decisions anyway. If I see a coach give a signal, I will tell the captain to look over to his coach before I "hear" his decision.







[Edited by mikesears on Nov 23rd, 2005 at 10:12 AM]

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Yes, the Federation rule book does say that the R, after the down, is supposed to give the offended captain the full description of the consequences of both accepting and declining the penalty. But in the interest of employing some common sense, it makes no sense whatsoever to potentially confuse him when a choice is obvious. In such a case, it's better to say to the captain something like, "We're going to assess fifteen yards from the end of the run for their facemask foul, right captain?" and just start doing it. Don't even give him a chance to make a foolish mistake. Same thing with a DBF after the play. How many of you really go to the captain and explain the consequences of declining such a penalty?

For those that wish to follow the letter of the law in this regard, go ahead. I just think you're setting yourself up for a bigger problem if you do. And...how many of you actually bring in the offending captain to inform him that a foul by his team occurred? The Fed rule says you're supposed to do that as well.

[nvfoa15]

Well, I'm with mikesears, TXMike, etc, if the choice is obvious I ain't askn', I'm tackn'!

[ljudge]

Originally posted by Bob M.
How many of you really go to the captain and explain the consequences of declining such a penalty?

And...you really got to know the coach because the "consequences" could be 25-pushups, 10 sets of "go-go's," or run laps after the game!

[golfnref]

I agree with those who avoid a lengthly explanation to a captain when the choice is obvious, ie., dead ball fouls, add ons, etc. I was a little relunctant to be on TXMikes side after the flag patch issue, but I'll get over it. LOL
Along this same line, I try to avoid letting the captain make a wrong choice at the coin toss. My options to him are simply, "do you want to receive or defer?" Now I know the purists will take exception to this because I have not given all the options spelled out in the book. If he wants to kick, it's up to him to verballize it or if his first choice is the end of the field he wants to defend, again it is up to him to state this. Usually they either want the ball or defer, consequently I avoid confusing them with anything else.