NF play.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Opie
And DevDog on your item #3, there is no illegal formation because they are going to free kick. He doesn't have to come inside the 9 yard marks.

He's not going to free kick on my football field until you guys convince me that my argument above is faulty

[Opie]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: devdog...the key to understanding this is in NF 6-5-4:

"ART. 4… The captain may choose to free kick or snap anywhere between the inbounds lines on the yard line through the spot of the catch when a fair catch is made or through the spot of interference, when a fair catch is awarded. These choices remain if a dead ball foul occurs prior to the down, or a foul or an inadvertent whistle occurs during the down and the down is replayed.

Even though the down number may not be the same (because B's penalty took A past the line the gain), the down is still considered "replayed."

Bob has it correct. The down following the fair catch is being replayed due to a foul, therefore, team A still has the option to free kick or snap. It's in the rules.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Opie

Bob has it correct. The down following the fair catch is being replayed due to a foul, therefore, team A still has the option to free kick or snap. It's in the rules.

Sorry, that's not good enough. I've been in the rulebook and have quoted the rule as to why I think the series ended. Tell me where it is 'in the rules', and I will look it up immediately.

[Opie]

Originally posted by devdog69
It is all beginning to hinge on whether this down is considered being replayed. I've read 6-5-4 and the case play 4.3.7, neither really help with that aspect, i.e., whether a tack-on penalty gives the offense a replay or just 15 more yards. 5-2-2 says 'the number of the next down is the same as that of the down during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or the enforcement or the advance results in a first down.'
Furthermore, 5-2-5 says 'Following a foul, a series of downs ends when: b. Acceptance or declination of any penalty leaves A in possession beyond the line to gain.

That is where I am basing my feeling that the series has ended and a new one has begun after enforcement of the long run and penalty.

DevDog, we'll probably have to agree to disagree here, but 6-5-4 supports the choice to free kick or snap. The case play 4.3.7 is very clear. In this instance, the foul is DPI, which includes an automatic first down as part of the penalty administration. This is still considered a replay of the previous down and A is given the choice to free kick or snap. This could only happen on first down following a fair catch.

And, a tack on penalty does give a replay of the down. Consider, 2nd and 25. A1 runs for 5 yards but is tackled by his facemask, 15 yarder. What is the next down and distance if A accepts penalty? It is 2nd and 5. The down is replayed even with the tack on. Same play, but A1 runs for 10 yards. It will then be 1st down after penalty enforcement, but the down is still considered replayed.

Good points made and good discussion. Hope I never see this.

[MJT]

Originally posted by devdog69

Sorry, that's not good enough. I've been in the rulebook and have quoted the rule as to why I think the series ended. Tell me where it is 'in the rules', and I will look it up immediately.

As I stated on page #1, 4-3-7 says "With the score tied near the end of the 4th qtr, R1 signals for a FC and catches the kick at K's 40. After a TO, the captain of R advises the R that he wishes to put the ball in play by snap. A1 throws a pass intended for A2. B1 interferes with A2 and the pass is incomplete. Following administration of the penalty, the captain of R decides to put the ball in play by free kick from K's 25 as a field-goal attempt. RULING - This is permissible and the clock will not start until the kick is touched, other than 1st touching by K. R is also priviledged to disignate the point on K's 25, anywhere between the IB's lines he wishes the ball to be placed.

[MJT]

Originally posted by devdog69
It is all beginning to hinge on whether this down is considered being replayed. I've read 6-5-4 and the case play 4.3.7, neither really help with that aspect, i.e., whether a tack-on penalty gives the offense a replay or just 15 more yards. 5-2-2 says 'the number of the next down is the same as that of the down during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or the enforcement or the advance results in a first down.'
Furthermore, 5-2-5 says 'Following a foul, a series of downs ends when: b. Acceptance or declination of any penalty leaves A in possession beyond the line to gain.

That is where I am basing my feeling that the series has ended and a new one has begun after enforcement of the long run and penalty.

I do not see what you are saying "that the series has ended after enforcement of the long run and penalty???

How is the original plays penalty enforcement different from 4-3-7 which again says "With the score tied near the end of the 4th qtr, R1 signals for a FC and catches the kick at K's 40. After a TO, the captain of R advises the R that he wishes to put the ball in play by snap. A1 throws a pass intended for A2. B1 interferes with A2 and the pass is incomplete. Following administration of the penalty, the captain of R decides to put the ball in play by free kick from K's 25 as a field-goal attempt. RULING - This is permissible.

I do not see the difference, other than we have a DPI instead of a FM at the end of a running play.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by MJT

I do not see what you are saying "that the series has ended after enforcement of the long run and penalty???

How is the original plays penalty enforcement different from 4-3-7 which again says "With the score tied near the end of the 4th qtr, R1 signals for a FC and catches the kick at K's 40. After a TO, the captain of R advises the R that he wishes to put the ball in play by snap. A1 throws a pass intended for A2. B1 interferes with A2 and the pass is incomplete. Following administration of the penalty, the captain of R decides to put the ball in play by free kick from K's 25 as a field-goal attempt. RULING - This is permissible.

I do not see the difference, other than we have a DPI instead of a FM at the end of a running play.

I do not see what you are saying "that the series has ended after enforcement of the long run and penalty???

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Because, that's what the rule below says.

5-2-5 says 'Following a foul, a series of downs ends when: b. Acceptance or declination of any penalty leaves A in possession beyond the line to gain.

According to 5-2-5, this series of downs has ended. Thus, we are NOT replaying anything and thus, no option to free kick.
Basically, I believe there are conflicts between 4.3.7 and 5-2-5, how can you take one over the other is my problem.

[Edited by devdog69 on Jul 18th, 2005 at 06:35 PM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Opie
And, a tack on penalty does give a replay of the down. Consider, 2nd and 25. A1 runs for 5 yards but is tackled by his facemask, 15 yarder. What is the next down and distance if A accepts penalty? It is 2nd and 5. The down is replayed even with the tack on. Same play, but A1 runs for 10 yards. It will then be 1st down after penalty enforcement, but the down is still considered replayed.

[/B]

It would still be 1st down. Facemasking is not a loss of down foul.

[MJT]

Originally posted by devdog69

I do not see what you are saying "that the series has ended after enforcement of the long run and penalty???

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Because, that's what the rule below says.

5-2-5 says 'Following a foul, a series of downs ends when: b. Acceptance or declination of any penalty leaves A in possession beyond the line to gain.

According to 5-2-5, this series of downs has ended. Thus, we are NOT replaying anything and thus, no option to free kick.
Basically, I believe there are conflicts between 4.3.7 and 5-2-5, how can you take one over the other is my problem.

[Edited by devdog69 on Jul 18th, 2005 at 06:35 PM]

5-2-5-a says "following a foul, a series of down ends when the acceptance of the penalty includes the award of a 1st down." This is the case in the DPI of 4-3-7, so the right to still free kick is allowed after a series of downs is ended.

5-2-5-a is what 4-3-7 is referring to, and 5-2-5-b is what you are using as your argument and they are in the same article, so they are one and the same regarding the right to rekick.

[DrMooreReferee]

Sorry Fellas.

I must admit, I posted this because I too have some convictions about this scenario. However, I do believe the rules support the right for A to free kick. Even though they just gained a ton of yards and for all intensive purposes they had their first down on their own merit. But that facemask penalty allows them to REPLAY the down that they just gained a mile on. And they now have an opportunity to free kick a FG to win the game. Just doesn't seem right, but alot of things in life are that way.

BTW, I just threw the illegal formation thing in there to make sure I understood that on free kicks the 9 yard marks don't matter.

Great discussion though. Good stuff!!!

[Bob M.]

REPLY: devdog...NF 5-2-2 (and NCAA 5-2-3) both relate to what the down number will be after an accepted penalty. The NCAA rule is a little cleaner since it specifically says "...the down will be repeated..." whereas its Federation counterpart simply says that "The number of the next down is the same..." It's a standard interpretation that unless the foul explicitly excludes the right to replay the down (NF 10-1-6 and NCAA-various places), any down which follows an accepted live ball foul is considered a replay of the previous down. This is true even if the prior series might have ended because of acceptance of the penalty. So consider these three situations:

After making a fair catch at K's 30, A runs a play from scrimmage.

(a) He's stopped for a loss at B's 34. However B is guilty of an incidental face mask. After enforcement, it's A's ball, first and 9 at B's 29. Team A indicates that they'd like to attempt a free kick. Ruling: Since the prior down is being replayed due to acceptance of the penalty, their request is valid.

(b) He runs to B's 16 where he is dragged down by the face mask. Acceptance of penalty gives A a new series at B's 8 yardline. Captain indicates that they wish to attempt a free kick. Ruling: Even though the prior series has ended, the prior down is still considered "replayed" making this also a valid request.

(c) He runs to B's 5 where he throws an illegal forward pass that falls incomplete. After enforcement, the resulting situation is A's ball, first and goal from B's 10. Team A captain indicates that they wish to attempt a free kick. Ruling: Prior series has ended, but the illegal forward pass penalty includes loss of the right to repeat the down. Their request to free kick is denied.

[Note: These scenarios are moot for NCAA since there is no option to free kick after a fair catch is made.]

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: devdog...NF 5-2-2 (and NCAA 5-2-3) both relate to what the down number will be after an accepted penalty. The NCAA rule is a little cleaner since it specifically says "...the down will be repeated..." whereas its Federation counterpart simply says that "The number of the next down is the same..." It's a standard interpretation that unless the foul explicitly excludes the right to replay the down (NF 10-1-6 and NCAA-various places), any down which follows an accepted live ball foul is considered a replay of the previous down. This is true even if the prior series might have ended because of acceptance of the penalty. So consider these three situations:

After making a fair catch at K's 30, A runs a play from scrimmage.

(a) He's stopped for a loss at B's 34. However B is guilty of an incidental face mask. After enforcement, it's A's ball, first and 9 at B's 29. Team A indicates that they'd like to attempt a free kick. Ruling: Since the prior down is being replayed due to acceptance of the penalty, their request is valid.

(b) He runs to B's 16 where he is dragged down by the face mask. Acceptance of penalty gives A a new series at B's 8 yardline. Captain indicates that they wish to attempt a free kick. Ruling: Even though the prior series has ended, the prior down is still considered "replayed" making this also a valid request.

(c) He runs to B's 5 where he throws an illegal forward pass that falls incomplete. After enforcement, the resulting situation is A's ball, first and goal from B's 10. Team A captain indicates that they wish to attempt a free kick. Ruling: Prior series has ended, but the illegal forward pass penalty includes loss of the right to repeat the down. Their request to free kick is denied.

[Note: These scenarios are moot for NCAA since there is no option to free kick after a fair catch is made.]

...and they are made up by you and are in no case book or rule book anywhere, so...I fully see your point, I just don't agree with the logic and don't think that within the 'spirit of the rules' this should be allowed. I am going to bring it up with our state director and get his view on this. Not that it will ever happn, anyway, lol.

[keystoneref]

After reading this thread I thought I would pull out my old casebooks and see if a play was directly on point. The play that I am about to list was in the casebook from 1987 to 1994. This remained the casebook play until 1995 when they changed to the play that they are currently using. The rule has not changed in that time and I am not aware of any new interpretations, that being said this illistrates team A has the right to free kick if they choose to.

6.5.3B Play: Team A is behind 7-6 with 20 seconds remaining in the 4th period. Team A has made a fair catch on the 50, and chooses to snap. A1 runs to the 20 where B1 tackles him, but grabs A1's face mask. If the penalty is accepted may Team A now request to free kick? Ruling: The request would be granted since the penalty was accepted for a foul which occured during the down following a fair catch or awarded fair catch.

This play is exactly like the play that was described except the yard lines have been changed. I hope this helps.

[DrMooreReferee]

Oh, it helps a bunch!!!

I think I hear crickets chirping.. LOL

Just kidding, I still feel like this is just kinda weird. But rules are rules.

[jfurdell]

Originally posted by devdog69
I fully see your point, I just don't agree with the logic and don't think that within the 'spirit of the rules' this should be allowed.[/B]

Another way to look at it:

Let's say R fair catches at the K35. They choose to snap and run for three yards on the following scrimmage down, but B commits a 5-yard face mask foul, which is accepted. Since it is now 1st and 2, I think we can agree that this down is being replayed, A does not get a new series, and they still have the option to free-kick.

Now... would it be in the spirit of the rules to allow A the option to free-kick after this 5-yard penalty, but not if the face mask happens to be a 15-yarder? In the latter situation, B has committed a more serious foul, but you want to take away A's option to free kick simply because the succeeding spot forces us to move the chains.