Play question?

B45 is returning a punt. As he is about to get tackled, B45 attempts to hand the ball forward to B23 who is clearly in front of him, B23 muffs the ball which falls to the ground and rolls forward and out of bounds.

Ruling:

[Deep]

NCAA: Fumble forward out of bounds. B's ball at the spot of the fumble.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by tpaul
B45 is returning a punt. As he is about to get tackled, B45 attempts to hand the ball forward to B23 who is clearly in front of him, B23 muffs the ball which falls to the ground and rolls forward and out of bounds.

Ruling:

Team B offside pass subject to penalty. B 1D @ point of fumble.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

I don't have my books but for NF rules I don't believe he's handed the ball forward. This would be a fumble out of bounds. B's ball first down where the ball went OOB.

The key is in the definitions, as usual, to see if there would be a foul for forward handing.

Andrew,
He hands it forward but the trick is they are trying to get you to think it is a foul but if you know the definition of "forward handing." That is one player hands it to another. In this play the B23 "muffs" the ball thus "handing" never happened - ie "muff." No foul. B's ball where it went OOB.

[MJT]

Originally posted by tpaul
Andrew,
He hands it forward but the trick is they are trying to get you to think it is a foul but if you know the definition of "forward handing." That is one player hands it to another. In this play the B23 "muffs" the ball thus "handing" never happened - ie "muff." No foul. B's ball where it went OOB.

tpaul, I agree it is not a foul, but is a fumble, not a muff.

2-19-1 says "handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is in still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass. Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempting handing is a fumble."

For NF, the muff or fumble IN THIS CASE makes no difference, but in NCAA, we it does cuz we have a FFumble OOB's which is returned to the spot of the fumble.

[golfnref]

Under NFL rules this would be an incomplete illegal forward pass. A forward pass is defined as one which initially moves forward after leaving the passer's
hands or one which is handed to a player who is in
advance of the teammate from whose hands he takes or receives it. Loss of 5 from spot of such illegal pass.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by golfnref
Under NFL rules this would be an incomplete illegal forward pass. A forward pass is defined as one which initially moves forward after leaving the passer's
hands or one which is handed to a player who is in
advance of the teammate from whose hands he takes or receives it. Loss of 5 from spot of such illegal pass.

REPLY: But if I'm not mistaken, that's only true for forward handoffs that occur beyond the line of scrimmage. Isn't that correct MJT??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT

[i]Originally posted by tpaul
tpaul, I agree it is not a foul, but is a fumble, not a muff.

2-19-1 says "handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is in still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate. Handing the ball is not a pass. Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempting handing is a fumble."

For NF, the muff or fumble IN THIS CASE makes no difference, but in NCAA, we it does cuz we have a FFumble OOB's which is returned to the spot of the fumble.

MJT,
You are correct! I muffed that one...LOL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob M.

[i]
REPLY: But if I'm not mistaken, that's only true for forward handoffs that occur beyond the line of scrimmage. Isn't that correct MJT??

Bob, the play I listed was after a change of possesion...

[golfnref]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: But if I'm not mistaken, that's only true for forward handoffs that occur beyond the line of scrimmage. Isn't that correct MJT??

I responded to the original play which was not from scrimmage. A ball handed forwarded to an eligible receiver behind the line is treated as a fumble if he muffs it. A ball handed forward to an ineligible receiver behind the line is treated as a forward pass.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: But if I'm not mistaken, that's only true for forward handoffs that occur beyond the line of scrimmage. Isn't that correct MJT??

golfnref is correct cuz there is not a LOS cuz of the COP. He is correct on the defn of a forward pass, and it DOES matter if it is behind, or beyond the LOS. NFL rule 8-1-7 supplemental note #1 states "A ball handed forward (no daylight) to an ELIGIBLE receiver behind the line is treated as a fumble if he muffs it. A ball handed forward to an INELIGIBLE receiver behind the line is treated as a forward pass and remains in play when caught (unless intercepted by B in which case the play continues)." If there is no LOS, which is the case here, we would have an IFP, as stated by golfnref.

Golfnref, thanks for the NFL info you emailed me. I printed it off, and will be looking at it on Sunday. It is good to have some NFL talk. Take care!

[i]I responded to the original play which was not from scrimmage. A ball handed forwarded to an eligible receiver behind the line is treated as a fumble if he muffs it. A ball handed forward to an ineligible receiver behind the line is treated as a forward pass. [/B]

golfnref,
don't be upset of somebody's reply. I know I don't reply to most who reply with NFL answers because I don't know the NFL rules well enough.

[MJT]

golfnref, I see you only have 6 posts, and just registered in June. Nice to have you on board, you will love it! Great guys, with great knowledge to learn from. Welcome!!!