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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 08, 2005, 08:07am
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REPLY: Just an note on Play #2. A friend of mine currently works in the NFL and has worked prior to that in the Big East. [Note, this doesn't make me any better of an official; it just gets me access to better information!] Their view on calling this foul is this: If the kick is short--like an onsides kick--call this one very tight. Any part of the kicker breaking the plane of K's restraining line draws a flag. If, however, the kick is deep, be very liberal on the call. Only flag those infractions that are extremely obvious such as when a member of K has stepped beyond his line before the ball is kicked. I know that this is not the same situation as the posted play, but the situation is related and I thought I'd offer it up for you to think about.

Dommer...have you spoken to our "friend" since you got your new assignment??
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 11, 2005, 12:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ljudge
Case 1) Team B jumps into the neutral zone and one of the wing officials goes up with a rag. Team A scores a TD on the play. The LJ comes up and says "I have team B OFFSIDES."

Case 2) On a free kick team K goes beyond the free-kick line. Team R returns the kick to team K's 5. BJ comes to you and says K was in the neutral zone prior to the kick being made.

Case 3) On a try the wings don't notice there's only 10 men in the game and screw up the fact that there's only 6 men on the line until after the play. The try is good.
I will deal with #3 first as it is the "easiest." This is a foul at the snap, and the play would happen anyways. It may not look good, but after the play, discuss the foul, mark it off, explain it to the coach (who will not be too happy), and go from there.

I think in 1 (and 2) we all know that the play is dead before it happens, and no time would futher go off the clock (yadda yadda yadda). The real issue is how do we deal with it.

Specifically for 1, it sounds good to say adavantage, disadvantage, but using that we would have to let all such plays go. Even though it was B who ganied an advantage with the foul (though I think that can be debated in many instances), we could argue in all the other "offsides" (yes, I know the 'inaccuracy' of my vocabulary) situations that no advantage is gained (or A has the chance to "wipe away" that advantage) if they are allowed to run the "free play" (and the can always take the 5 yards later). However as NF officials, we are not going to allow that to happen, and we will blow this play dead. Also, as previously mentioned, the B coach may have seen the foul, and there will be a heck of job explaining why the play happened anyway. Yes, I know you will have a heck of a job explaining the situation to the A coach, but at least you will have the support of the rules in that situation. Either way you have to give bad news, and explain you "screwed up," I suppose I'm inclined to say have the rules on your side when you do it.

With 2, because it could be a much less "visible" foul, I am inclined to wave it off, but again, I don't think you would be wrong calling it back (but, again, obviously you have to be prepared for quite a fun discussion).
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 11, 2005, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonTX
Getting it right is most important. I can't remember who I heard this from so I won't take credit but it holds well with these situations. "It's always better to look ugly and be right than it is to look good and be wrong" Of course we'd always prefer to look good and be right but sometimes it just don't happen that way. Get it right and move on.
GREAT words of wisdom... one to remember at all times, at all levels.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 13, 2005, 02:06am
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For #1 and #2, I think the play needs to be blown dead. The integrity of the game should be #1. As for #3, if you don't see the foul, then there's no foul. My first game the WH told me not to go to him with a penalty and say "something didn't look right". If you see it, call it. If you don't, then don't.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 13, 2005, 08:43am
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Quote:
Originally posted by schmitty1973
For #1 and #2, I think the play needs to be blown dead. The integrity of the game should be #1. As for #3, if you don't see the foul, then there's no foul. My first game the WH told me not to go to him with a penalty and say "something didn't look right". If you see it, call it. If you don't, then don't.
I think the problem with plays 1 and 2 is that the official who calls the foul is often the only official who "sees" the foul. Definitely on a free kick (play 2), only the BJ would be aware of an encroachment, especially is it was relatively "close." In play 1 the R or U may see the flag, and be pretty sure it is encroachment (and, thus, the play should not take place), but the flag could be for illegal formation, illegal motion, or a bunch of other fouls for which the play is run as "normal," and the R or U (or whomever else) has no business blowing the ball dead.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 13, 2005, 08:14pm
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At the subvarsity level, especially below the JV level, I'm tempted to waive off all of them the first time they happen, followed by a short meeting with my wing guys on proper rules knowledge. If it happens again in the game, the flags stay and the wing official gets to accompany the R to the sideline to listen while I talk to the coach.

At the JV level and without a doubt at the varsity level, the flag stays and after you (the R) explain what happened to the respective coaches, you remind your wings of the rules. As an R, I would have little/no tolerance for these kind of missed calls at the varsity level, especially the first two. Usually there's plenty of time between a touchdown and the try and even though there may be a number of substitutions, there's still time to count the players.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 14, 2005, 12:37pm
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We all know officiating involves game management, using common sense, advantage-disadvantage etc. That being said once we start deciding on enforcements, like in #1 and #2, based on the outcome of the play versus what the rule book will allow-where does it all stop? Re-run the play, eat the criticism and move on.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 15, 2005, 07:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by twref
We all know officiating involves game management, using common sense, advantage-disadvantage etc. That being said once we start deciding on enforcements, like in #1 and #2, based on the outcome of the play versus what the rule book will allow-where does it all stop? Re-run the play, eat the criticism and move on.
I agree....perhaps "ru-run" is not the best word, but I can't see "eating" the flag. As myself and others have brought up before, how are you going to explain this to the defensive coach (play 1). Advatage/disadvantage is a valuable "tool," especially, for example, when not calling a hold on the right tackle when the play is a sweep around left end. At a certain point, though, rules are rules, and we will make big trouble for ourselves when we being to decide if certain rules are valid or invalid based on the outcome of the play.
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