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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 11:26am
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I'm interested in how some of you would handle botched calls / rulings. This hasn't happened to me yet in working the R position in a varsity game but I dread the day it does. #1 did happen in a JV game with a cadet and I simply waived the flag using rule 1.1.6. I went this way because the defense clearly gained an advantage and the offense still scored despite team B having that advantage. It was the only thing I thought was equitable.
Any way, three examples: Case 1) Team B jumps into the neutral zone and one of the wing officials goes up with a rag. Team A scores a TD on the play. The LJ comes up and says "I have team B OFFSIDES." Case 2) On a free kick team K goes beyond the free-kick line. Team R returns the kick to team K's 5. BJ comes to you and says K was in the neutral zone prior to the kick being made. Case 3) On a try the wings don't notice there's only 10 men in the game and screw up the fact that there's only 6 men on the line until after the play. The try is good. Obviously cases #1 and 2 warrant a lecture and an earful for the official not knowing the rules, let alone that offsides is an NCAA/NFL term. In case #3 there's a serious communications issue. I would waive the rag in cases 1 and 2 and drop one in the 3rd. Agree or disagree? If not, why not? 
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 11:47am
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Ljudge, I agree with you on all three cases.
On 1 and 2 these obviously should never have been allowed to get underway and since the officials are the ones who allowed the plays to continue, waive em' off. Now B is going to be pissed because you didn't stop the play and call the penalties on his team, although he probably would have been mad if you had blown these dead, too. Can't win on this one. Number 3 is a little easier because the illegal formation is a foul at the snap, so letting the play continue is OK. Go ahead and drop the hanky and replay the try. I don't think you'd get to much guff on this. The first two are scenarios that should probably be gone over in every pregame, especially with new guys.
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 12:16pm
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REPLY: Clearly, none of these situations are good. I think I can go along with you and Opie on situations 2 and 3. But I might disagree with you on Situation #1. When B jumps into the neutral zone, it is entirely possible that players from both teams relaxed anticipating a whistle and a call of some sort. That could be the only reason that A scored. I really think we need to swallow our pride on this one and drop the flag and negate the play. Tough break for A. But it might be exceptionally unfair to B to just allow the score and pretend nothing happened.
__________________
Bob M.
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 12:20pm
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I also agree 100%. Waive off the first two cases, because as you stated, the defense gained an advantage and the offense scored anyway. As Opie stated, warrants a good talking to the LJ and BJ. Although not technically correct per the rule book, I believe it meets the intent of the rules of advantage vs. disadvantage.
Third case, live ball foul so drop the flag after for the illegal formation and replay the try. Case 1 actually happened to me with a rookie official in the very first game I was ever the white hat. Fortunately, it was a Soph level and not a varsity game. I got out of earshot of everyone, explained the situation to the rookie and waived off the flag. No one asked any questions.
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 12:26pm
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Canadian Philosophy
Quote:
1. The proper procedure is to throw a flag. The Referee will decline the B foul for offside, and award the touchdown. 2. The proper procedure is to throw a flag. The Referee will decline the K foul for offside, and award the forward progress. 3. Edit the stich to mean only 11 players on the field. Being short 1 player means that A may be short 1 player on the line. No infraction has occurred. Play on.
__________________
Pope Francis
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 02:13pm
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What would be your "words" to the coach when he asked why you are waving off the flag? You gotta tell him something.
On the freekick play, you might get away with it. But on the TD play, it's time to swallow ones pride and call it back. Team-A can't be allowed to score on what should have been a dead ball no play in the first place. I'm sure this happens more frequently at the JV and lower levels, but hopefully not at the Varsity level where more experienced officials are on the game. That being said, it's more fuel for an NF rule change to allow for these types of fouls to be live ball fouls whit the chance for the fouled team to decline.
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 03:44pm
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I disagree with the consensus in 1 & 2. There was no play. The action that caused the dead ball was the foul. Everything that happened after the foul is moot. Remember the whistle does not stop play. The rules determine when the action ends.
Example: K kicks off on a free kick prior to the ready for play. (1) B runs it back for a TD. (2) B fumbles and A recovers. According to your logic, would (1) count and (2) not. The point is, nothing that happened counts. Similarly, everything after the dead ball fouls in your examples is irrelevent. Thoughts?
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 04:24pm
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Some very interesting points. Originally, I gave my "knee jerk" response based upon my previous "bad" experience at lower level contests. I can see both sides of this discussion, particularly Bob M.'s comment about how A may have gained an advantage as B believed a dead ball foul occurred. "After further review" I think you have to take your beatings in case 1 and most likely case 2 and call them back for the dead ball foul.
Taking this one step further, how do you handle the overzealous new official that throws a flag for offensive holding on a scoring play, but his flag is 30 yards away from the play (holding was not near the point of attack and had no influence on the play)?
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 04:58pm
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I think bottom line here is...don't let this happen!
I was taught something early in my career, and that is, there are a lot of things that can happen when a play that should be blown dead isn't, and none of them are good. How to clean it up if it happens? I think some good points on both sides. Game situation, etc, might be what determines how to handle these.
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Mon Jun 06, 2005, 11:49pm
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In my opinion, plays 1 and 2 never happened cuz those penalties should have killed the clock before they ever really started. Bob had a great point, and even if A didn't get an advantage, one of the teams will benifit if you let the play go. No matter what happens, someone would come out ahead. The coach may not be happy, but I think he'll understand.
Play 3 is different cuz it is a live ball foul. You have two choices, let it go, talk about it and don't let it happen again. Probably telling the coach, "we never got the correct count, so we had no flag," or drop it and tell the coach, "we should have had a flag earlier, but it wasn't dropped, we have a late flag now, but it is the correct call." I am not going to lie to the coach, so if we had the count, but didn't have a flag down, I'm laying one down and will personally go talk to him. I am the R, but if we have a screw up, which needs to be addressed with the coach, I will do the talking personally, or accompany the covering official if he wishes to explain it to the coach.
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Tue Jun 07, 2005, 10:11am
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Quote:
__________________
Bob M.
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Tue Jun 07, 2005, 10:55am
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I will go along with Bob M and others - Numbers 1 and 2 should have been blown dead and were indeed dead at the snap.
I disagree on number 3. You can't count from memory. If you let that one go at the snap, forget about it. You can't assume/recreate what you think happened. It's over, you missed it. Don't let it happen again.
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Tue Jun 07, 2005, 03:55pm
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I think the bottom line is- get it right, no matter what amount of pride is lost. Sure we can discuss advantage/disadvantage but I think that if a misapplication comes to our attention, like in 1 and 2, then we need to take our lumps, get it right, and have a talk with the offending official.
Now for the third situation, I've been involved in a few games where this happens. Since R is responsible for counting A, and LJ and LM are responsible for counting B, at times LJ and LM are late checking the number of players on the line on their side of center. There are times where R has thrown the procedure flag at the snap, when he counts 10 A players on field w/ 4 in the backfield. Obviously, this isn't a good situation because LJ and LM should catch this before R does. It shouldn't be Rs responsibility to flag it. But he discussed it with both LJ and LM, made sure that U had 10 A players as well, and got the call right. I think the same philosophy applies to situation 3. Now if it is LJ and LM discussing it after they count 10 A players and the play is over, and recreating the formation at snap from their memory, then that gets sticky. But I still say get it right if possible. With LJ, LM, and R, all checking off their responsibilities (number of A or B players on the field, players on the line, and identifying eligible backs), this should be caught before the snap/play is over.
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Tue Jun 07, 2005, 04:48pm
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Getting it right is most important. I can't remember who I heard this from so I won't take credit but it holds well with these situations. "It's always better to look ugly and be right than it is to look good and be wrong" Of course we'd always prefer to look good and be right but sometimes it just don't happen that way. Get it right and move on.
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