Stump the chump - variety

[MJT]

1. FG attempt from 23 yard line and the holder is on one knee awaiting the snap. The snap is high and the holder rises slightly to get the snap, immediately returns to one knee for the kick.

2. FG attempt from 23 yard line and the holder is on one knee awaiting the snap. The snap is low and bounces once on the way to the holder and he rises slightly to get the snap, immediately returns to one knee for the kick.

3. The ball has the forward point just touching the 25 yard line. On 4th and 8 team A throws an incomplete pass. The ball is placed with the forward point just touching the “outside edge” of the 25 yard line. Is this correct, or not?

4. On a legal forward pass play, A88 and B13 simultaneously catch the pass at the B 25 yardline, and continue running together with it to the B 20 before A wrestles it away from B13 and runs for a TD.

[Opie]

NF Rules. Trying it without the book.

1. Legal

2. Ball is dead when holder places knee back on the ground.

3. Ball should be placed in exact same position on the field. Box should be moved about 11 inches to new front point of ball and then the chains set.

4. Ball is dead at point of simultaneous possession and belongs to A. Blow your whistle!

[Mike Simonds]

NFHS rules:

1. Legal play by the holder. Ball remains live.
2. Ball is dead when holder returns his knee(s) to the ground.
3. Is it 4th and 8 from A's 25 or B's 25 yard line? In any case, the ball is placed at the exact spot where it was on 4th down. Then the box is set at the other point of the ball and its 1st and 10 for B.
4. Assuming both A and B returned to the ground at the B25, the ball is dead and belongs to A at that spot.

[JugglingReferee]

1. Legal.

2. Legal.

3. Correct.

4. TD.

[Bob Mc]

Mike and Opie have it right.

[IAUMP]

Just a question from a first year official.

If it is legal and the play continues when the holder rises to get a high snap and returns to one knee (as in play a), why is it a dead ball when the holder rises to get a bouncing snap and returns to one knee (as in play b).

Please help me get a better understanding of this so I don't mess it up next year.

[waltjp]

Originally posted by IAUMP
Just a question from a first year official.

If it is legal and the play continues when the holder rises to get a high snap and returns to one knee (as in play a), why is it a dead ball when the holder rises to get a bouncing snap and returns to one knee (as in play b).

Please help me get a better understanding of this so I don't mess it up next year.

The simple answer - dems da rules.

The difference is the snap on the ground. If you lift your knee to field a snap that has been grounded you can't place your knee on the ground again. You may, however, crawl after a bad snap.

[MJT]

Originally posted by IAUMP
Just a question from a first year official.

If it is legal and the play continues when the holder rises to get a high snap and returns to one knee (as in play a), why is it a dead ball when the holder rises to get a bouncing snap and returns to one knee (as in play b).

Please help me get a better understanding of this so I don't mess it up next year.

For whatever, that is simply what the rule is in NF. See casebook rules 4.2.2C and 4.2.2D. The exact senarios are located there. In NCAA both 1 and 2 would be legal.

[Jim S]

OK, now the snap goes bad. The holder rises, runs over to the ball, the kicker does likewise. The snapper returns to the ground, recovers the kick, and the kicker sends it through the uprights.
Whatta ya got?

[waltjp]

Originally posted by Jim S
OK, now the snap goes bad. The holder rises, runs over to the ball, the kicker does likewise. The snapper returns to the ground, recovers the kick, and the kicker sends it through the uprights.
Whatta ya got?

It's dead when the holder puts his knee to the ground.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by waltjp
It's dead when the holder puts his knee to the ground.

Why Walt? ...He doesn't have the ball in his possession then.

[Theisey]

The holder is in possession of a ball when he is controlling it for a kick as in this case with the ball held on the ground.

The exception to the dead-ball/down-over rule only applies when the holder has to rise to catch a high snap and he immediately gets back down on his knees to spot the ball for the kicker.

The exception does not apply once the holders knees have come off the ground to recover a snapped ball that he had muffed or fumbled or had to chase down for whatever reason.

It's all detailed out in rule #4.

[JRutledge]

Do you guys have a specific ruling that backs that up? I have never seen any place that says a holder cannot recover the ball in order to complete the kick. They only thing I have ever read about this is they make a specific ruling on a high snap and say that is OK. But I have never read where you could not recover a snap as a holder, as long as you are trying to complete the kick. Now if you get up and look like you are going to run, that is another story. I would like an official ruling, not just "that is the way it is" talk.

Peace

[Bob Mc]

4.2.2 situation D in the case book (somewhere along the way I lost my rule book) but that play backs up the ball is dead case.

Have a Merry Christmas!

[Texoma_LJ]

Rule 4-a-2 specifically states that the ball remains alive if he "rises and catches and errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground". In the example given...

OK, now the snap goes bad. The holder rises, runs over to the ball, the kicker does likewise. The snapper returns to the ground, recovers the kick, and the kicker sends it through the uprights.

The holder does not rise "AND CATCH" the errant snap, the snap was not controlled until he returned his knees to the ground. In MHO the catch (gaining possession) must occur BEFORE the knee(s) are returned to the ground, not after as stated.