timing issue...

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by rdfox [with Bob's comments]
The clock was properly stopped as an officials time out because of the action at the end of the play; specifically, the tackling of B who possessed the ball (a change in team possession). Then how do you jive this with NF 3-4-2a which says that the clock starts with the READY for an official's time-out, other than when Team B is awarded a new series (they weren't) or when either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick (also immaterial).

It is therefore, by rule 3-4-2 (b)3, this same action that does not allow the clock to start until the snap, regardless of whether a penalty was involved. NF 3-4-2b (3) deals only with those actions which both simultaneously cause the down to end and the clock to stop (e.g. incomplete pass, ball/runner OOB, runner crossing opponent's goal line, touchback.) The down in the original play ended when the runner was tackled inbounds. This in itself does NOT cause the clock to stop. The only reason the clock stopped was, as you said above, for an officials time out to deal with the change of possession. Ask yourself these two questions: (1.) What caused the down to end, and (2.) What caused the clock to stop?. If you get the exact same answer to both, then there's validity in applying 3-4-2b(3). If you don't get the exact same answer, that rule is immaterial.

The logic that says the clock should start on the ready would require you to conclude that the clock should not have been stopped in the first place. So you're saying that whenever you start the clock on the ready, you should not have stopped it in the first place?? How about when A reaches the line to gain. Should we not have stopped the clock in such cases? But the clock has to stop when the ball became dead, and therefore, it has to only start on the snap.

[mcrowder]

A change in team possession is not technically the reason you're starting on the snap --- it's the awarding of a new series to B. Look at the rule again - change in team possession is not there - awarding of a series is. Since you have no award of a new series to B, this scenario does NOT fit into #6 of the exceptions.

[rdfox]

To Bob M.:

1) The ruling does not have to jive with 3-4-2a because 3-4-2b has subsections 1, 2 and 3 that relate to both (a) and (b),

2) I contend that the inbounds tackling of B who is in possession of the ball is an action that requires an officials time out due to the change of team possession. It is not two separate events. This is probably the source of the difference between the "Ready" people and the "Snap" people.

3) As for the "logic" involved, I'm using the end result as a reality check. If we started the clock on the ready after a penalty enforcement, we are declaring that the penalty was the only reason the clock stopped. But the covering official stopped the clock because of something other than the penalty (the truth is, he may not have even known there was a flag, but stopped the clock properly anyway). This holds true for any penalty enforcement. In my last posting, I was not referring to anytime we start the clock on the ready, only when we start the clock on the ready after a penalty. Sorry for my not being clear.

To mcrowder:

The three subsections in 3-4-2b refer to both (a) and (b) so you do not have to have the awarding of a new series for B to have one of the exceptions apply.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: rdfox...one last question. I posted this a few pages back. I'm not sure you saw it. Please fill in the blank...

PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

[rdfox]

Ahh, I smell a trap...

The fourth down play ends short of the line-to-gain, and we stop the clock because it appears that A had not reached the line-to-gain.

However, alas, we have a penalty. Lo and behold, A has indeed reached the line-to-gain after the distance measurement, so the clock stoppage was not for B being awarded a new series, it was only for the movement of the chains.

Start the clock on the ready.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: rdfox...one last question. I posted this a few pages back. I'm not sure you saw it. Please fill in the blank...

PLAY: A, 4-5 from B's 40. A runs to B's 38 where he is tackled. During the run, B is detected incidentally grasping the runner's face mask. RULING: After enforcement, it will be A's ball, 1-10 from B's 33. Clock starts on the _______ ?

+_+ NCAA: on the snap.

[kdf5]

Gentlemen: I come to you hat in hand and a repentent rule book sinner. I have seen the error of my ways. Please change my vote from snap to ready and as punishment I will work all of your peewee and 8th grade games next year.

Let's go back to the original post. B intercepts, B interferes. The interception is an official's TO. The actions that stop the clock are in 3-4-4 and are directly related to 3-4-2-3b such as going OB, scoring, incompletion. The INT isn't one of them, it's just an official's TO. Awarding a new series after the INT gets the snap start but not a INT called back by a foul. The clock starts on the ready. Great discussion, thanks for opening my eyes to a long held and incorrect interpretation.

[SouthGARef]

I too have been swayed. I must repent for being wrong.

Clock will start on the RFP.

[rdfox]

Still not convinced here about starting the clock on the ready for play.

Try this scenario...A punts the ball and B makes a fair catch. A is flagged for holding on the line of scrimmage. B accepts the penalty to make A re-kick. When does the clock start?

Based on all of my previous logic, I say on the snap.

[Theisey]

But now you have totally changed the play and the reason for stopping the clock. This is covered in a different rule subsection.

The NCAA answer is easy... On the SNAP.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by rdfox
Ahh, I smell a trap...

The fourth down play ends short of the line-to-gain, and we stop the clock because it appears that A had not reached the line-to-gain.

However, alas, we have a penalty. Lo and behold, A has indeed reached the line-to-gain after the distance measurement, so the clock stoppage was not for B being awarded a new series, it was only for the movement of the chains.

Start the clock on the ready.

REPLY: You certainly did smell a trap! Why did you stop the clock after the 4th down? Wasn't it because A didn't make the line to gain, and therefore the ball is now going over to B? True, there is a foul to dispose of, but you would have stopped the clock anyway for the officials time out. And you said in an earlier post:

Originally posted by rdfox
Any time you have a penalty, ask yourself...when would the clock start without the penalty?
And that's your answer as to when to start it, after the penalty enforcement.

And clearly in my play by your logic, if there was no foul, you should start the play on the snap since B would be awarded a new series. But yet you said start it on the ready. What's fundamentally different between the originally posted play and the one I posted? Nothing really. In each, we initially stop the clock with an official's time out in anticipation of awarding B a new series. However, in both, a foul against B supersedes this and no new series is awarded. The fact that one play has the COP occurring during the down and the other has the COP occurring at the conclusion of the down is really immaterial. In both plays, we're initially stopping the clock because of an apparent change of possession and in anticipation of awarding B a new series. If we do award B the new series, start it on the snap; if we don't award B a new series, start it on the ready--unless of course the previous down ended with an incomplete pass, ball OOB, score...

Your logic and interpretation of the timing rules is 100% correct...for NCAA, but Federation is different, and in my humble opinion, I think you've got it wrong for Fed.

We may just need to agree to disagree.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Patton
Add another vote for the RFP. Great topic and very professionally argued.

The Supreme Court would be impressed by the arguments presented here. However, politicians would be annoyed by the extensive use of logic here!

[rdfox]

This is one of the things I love about FB officiating (probably other sports, too, but I only do high school football, by choice)...after 26 years on the field, you still have perplexing and intriguing items to debate.

Thanks to all your professionalism and courtesy on this. We have a three-hour drive this afternoon to a playoff game. My crew will enjoy this one!

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by rdfox
This is one of the things I love about FB officiating (probably other sports, too, but I only do high school football, by choice)...after 26 years on the field, you still have perplexing and intriguing items to debate.

Thanks to all your professionalism and courtesy on this. We have a three-hour drive this afternoon to a playoff game. My crew will enjoy this one!

REPLY: Congratulations on the assignment and best of luck. Our playoffs begin next weekend. Just don't start the clock on the snap after an interception unless B gets a new series !

[KWH]

Originally posted by rdfox
Still not convinced here about starting the clock on the ready for play.

I am saddened that a "26-year R" can't admit he has made an interpretation error and can continue to insist "this falls into one of the exceptions" but can't find his mythical exception anywhere in the rules publications. Additionally, when some of the his peers point out his shortcomings, he still "stands with his decision to start the clock on the snap".

Originally posted by rdfox

Try this scenario...A punts the ball and B makes a fair catch. A is flagged for holding on the line of scrimmage. B accepts the penalty to make A re-kick. When does the clock start? Based on all of my previous logic, I say on the snap.

What's this? If you can't prove your point, change the subject?
Because the fair catch was made the clock shall start on the snap. Same answer if the ball went OOB or into the endzone.
Please note, FAIR CATCH, BALL OOB, INCOMPLETE PASS, are all action that caused the clock to be stopped and therefore the clock SHALL start on the snap.

You may notice that an interception gained illegally (or without clean hands) is not listed here. Therefore, the action of the original play in this post did not cause the clock to stop, and furthermore, since B was not awared a new series, the clock SHALL start on the snap!

Finally, if you are still convinced you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, you should contact your state rules interpreter for an interpretation. Then, when you are convinced he is wrong, contact Jerry Diehl. Jerry is the NFHS rules book editor and he can be reached at 317-972-6900 or e-mail him at [email protected].

Please shall your response from Jerry...





[Edited by KWH on Nov 5th, 2004 at 01:30 PM]