timing issue...

[mikesears]

I pulled together all the pertinent rules to try to make my point. I'm sorry for the length of this post, but I am very passionate about getting things right. I don't mean to offend anyone. If I have, I offer my apologies.



Here are the pertinent rules.



Here is the rule about when a ball becomes dead 4-2-4:

The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

A. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

B. When a live ball goes out of bounds.

C. When any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete or is simultaneously caught by opposing players.

D. When any legal free kick or scrimmage kick (1) Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded scoring attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line. (2) Which is a scoring attempt, while in flight touches a K player in R’s end zone, or after breaking the plane of R’s goal line has apparently failed. EXCEPTION: If a scoring attempt kick touches an upright or crossbar or an R player in the end zone and caroms through the goal, the touching is ignored and the attempt is successful.

E. When any loose ball (1) Is simultaneously caught or recovered by opposing players. (2) Is on the ground motionless and no player attempts to secure possession.(3) Touches, or is touched by, anything inbounds other than a player, substitute, replaced player, an official, the ground or authorized equipment. In this case the ball will be put in play in accordance with the procedure for an inadvertent whistle as in 4-2-3b.

F. When the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere, and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and when the kickers are first (i.e., before any touching by the receivers) to touch a scrimmage kick after it has come to rest beyond the neutral zone and between the goal lines.

G. Following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick or free kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone.

H. When a touchdown or field goal occurs.

I. During a try if B secures possession or as soon as it is apparent that a kick has failed to score.

J. When an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

K. When the helmet comes completely off a player who is in possession of the ball.


By rule, the action that caused the down to end was a player being tackled inbounds. Not one of these says a down ends when the ball is intercepted. So we must have a different reason for stopping the clock after an intercetpion. We do. We now have an official's timeout.

Rule 3-5-7 speaks about officials's timeouts.

An official’s time-out occurs during a dead ball without a time-out being charged to either team:

(a) For measurement of a possible first down.
(b) When a first down is declared.
(c) Following a change of team possession.
(d) When captains and coaches are notified of the time remaining.
(e) For a player who appears to be injured.
(f) For a player in need of equipment repair.
(g) To dry or change the game ball.
(i) For unusual heat or humidity which may create a health risk to the players.
(j) When a coach-referee conference concerning the misapplication of a rule results in the referee altering his ruling. (See 3-5-11)
(k) After a foul, to administer the penalty.
(l) For any unusual delay in getting the ball ready for play.
(m) For a TV/radio time-out that is permitted and granted as authorized by state association policy.
(n) For a one-minute intermission between the first and second and the third and fourth periods and following a try, successful field goal or safety and prior to the succeeding free kick.


Rule 3-4-4 speaks about when we stop the clock (It does not address starting it):

The clock shall be stopped when:
(a) The down ends following a foul.
(b) An official’s time-out is taken.
(c) A charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.
(d) The period ends.
(e) The ball is out of bounds.
(f) A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.
(g) A score or touchback occurs.
(h) A fair catch is made.
(i) An inadvertent whistle is sounded.


Rule 3-4-2 speaks about starting the clock:

The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:
(a) For an official’s time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.
(b) Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either (a) or (b):
(1)There has been no charged time-out during the dead-ball interval.
(2) The down is not an extension of a period or a try.
(3) The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.
(c) Because of an inadvertent whistle.


In 3-4-2b3, the "ACTION" that ended the down was a ball carrier being tackled. An interception does not cause a down to end. It is an official's timeout because of a possible change of possession. We then factor in actions that occured during the down and the interception likely WON'T stand. So B is not awarded a new series. If B is not awarded a new series and the action of a player being tackled didn't stop the clock, we MUST start the game clock on the ready-for-play.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by MJT

I am doing some digging in the books, thinking, and bouncing back and forth before I come back with my big reply, but Bob, your question is not remotely the same. There is no COP, which is the "potential" problem here. Obviously in your question, it starts on the RFP, but there was no COP, so that is a no brainer.

REPLY: You're correct in one thing...it starts on the ready. But wait a minute...didn't we stop the clock after the 4th down since A didn't make the line to gain? Isn't there a change of possession if there was no foul? Just like the original play. So each play has a change of possession--the original one via an interception, the mine via A's failure to make the line to gain.

[MJT]

I think I may have found some things to put this discussion at rest.
3-4-3b says "snap" if B is awarded new series - did not happen.
3-5-7c says officials TO following a change in team possession - we did have that. After penalty consideration, B not given new series, so don't have to start on snap as stated in 3-4-3b. Tackle was IB, so that would indicate RFP.
Casebook 3.4.3D says "With 3rd-10: (a) A1 fumbles the ball and B recovers, or (b) A1's pass is intercepted by B. When will the clock start? RULING: Since a change of possession has occured in both (a) and (b) and B is awarded a new series of downs, the clock will start on the snap.
This "and" in the casebook was a big one in my changing sides to the RFP. That "and" would not have to be in there, but with it being there indicates to me that for it to start on the snap, both the COP "and" new series for B must occur.
I now say RFP.
It is discussions like this that make me love these boards. The arguing back and forth gets you in the book and keeps us fresh. Thanks!!

[Patton]

Add another vote for the RFP. Great topic and very professionally argued.

[rdfox]

I'm still a snap believer.

Any time you have a penalty, ask yourself...when would the clock start without the penalty?

And that's your answer as to when to start it, after the penalty enforcement.

Originally posted by mcrowder
ksf - Since When? Since a few years ago. The timing of when we stopped doing that is irrelevant to the discussion. Show me the rule that says you stop the clock after an interception and start it on the snap. You can't. There isn't one. There is, in fact, a case in the CB in which you don't. So obviously it's something else causing you to start it on the ready after 99% of the interceptions. That thing is the one thing that is missing from the original scenario here. So you don't start it on the snap in the CB play, and you don't start it on the snap on the original scenario.

Gee, this is getting fun. Actually, there is a scenario in the casebook. Look at 3.4.3 SITUATION D

Serg

[MJT]

Originally posted by VaASAump

Gee, this is getting fun. Actually, there is a scenario in the casebook. Look at 3.4.3 SITUATION D

Serg

That is what I said changed my mind a few posts above.
Casebook 3.4.3D says "With 3rd-10: (a) A1 fumbles the ball and B recovers, or (b) A1's pass is intercepted by B. When will the clock start? RULING: Since a change of possession has occured in both (a) and (b) and B is awarded a new series of downs, the clock will start on the snap.
This "and" in the casebook was a big one in my changing sides to the RFP. That "and" would not have to be in there, but with it being there indicates to me that for it to start on the snap, both the COP "and" new series for B must occur.
I now say RFP.

Originally posted by rdfox
I'm still a snap believer.

Any time you have a penalty, ask yourself...when would the clock start without the penalty?

And that's your answer as to when to start it, after the penalty enforcement.

Yeah, I was too. Until....

4-3...The clock shall start with the snap......if the clock was stopped because:.....
b. B is awarded a new series.

Since B was not awarded a new series, and the runner was tackled in bounds, I now see where clock starts at the RFP.

Gee, I had an easier time voting this past Tuesday.

Serg

[Edited by VaASAump on Nov 4th, 2004 at 12:20 PM]

[KWH]

The confusion by some of the newer officials is simple.

The down ended with B in control of the football. 2-32-1
The down ended with B in possession of the football. 2-32-1
The down ended with B in Team possession of the football. 2-32-2
But wait...
B did not gain possession with "Clean Hands" as they fouled prior to gaining final possession 10-2-2
B was not awarded a new series 3-4-3b

The result of the play originally asked by Terpzebra is as follows:
A is awarded an automatic first down due to the DPI 7-5-10
The clock was stopped for an officials timeout, after a foul to administer a penalty 3-5-7j
I am fully aware we would have stopped the clock anyway because B had intercepted the football,
HOWEVER, the penalty flag trumps the stopage for change of possession.
After the officials sort it out, B is NOT awarded a new series.
Therefore...
The clock shall start on the ready for play 3-4-2

[rdfox]

Those who quoting 3-4-2 are correct in their analysis and then incorrect in the final judgment.

3-4-2 says to start the clock on the ready, unless certain things have happened, in which case you start on the snap. These things are:
1) B has a new series, or
2) A or B has a new series after a legal kick, or
3) there was a charged time out, or
4) it is an extension of the period, or
5) it is a try, or
6) the clock was stopped due to the action at the end of the previous play.

We are all acknowledging that it was proper to stop the clock for an official's time out due to a change in team possession. No one is suggesting that the clock should have kept on running.

Therefore, this falls into one of the exceptions and this 26-year R stands with his decision to start the clock on the snap.

[mcrowder]

rdfox - which of the 6 exceptions you listed are you saying applies here. I don't see this scenario listed.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by Bob M.


REPLY: You're correct in one thing...it starts on the ready. But wait a minute...didn't we stop the clock after the 4th down since A didn't make the line to gain? Isn't there a change of possession if there was no foul? Just like the original play. So each play has a change of possession--the original one via an interception, the mine via A's failure to make the line to gain.

Bob, please tell me you are putting this one forth only for discussion purposes. 5.1.2b, 5.2.1, 5.2.2

It's a bit like saying Team A would be wearing their blue jerseys if they hadn't worn the white ones.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Jim S

Bob, please tell me you are putting this one forth only for discussion purposes. 5.1.2b, 5.2.1, 5.2.2

It's a bit like saying Team A would be wearing their blue jerseys if they hadn't worn the white ones.

REPLY: Yep...discussion only...just to point out an inconsistency in some folks' thinking.

Originally posted by mcrowder
rdfox - which of the 6 exceptions you listed are you saying applies here. I don't see this scenario listed.

I'm also looking for the scenario.

[rdfox]

The clock was properly stopped as an officials time out because of the action at the end of the play; specifically, the tackling of B who possessed the ball (a change in team possession).

It is therefore, by rule 3-4-2 (b)3, this same action that does not allow the clock to start until the snap, regardless of whether a penalty was involved.

The logic that says the clock should start on the ready would require you to conclude that the clock should not have been stopped in the first place. But the clock has to stop when the ball became dead, and therefore, it has to only start on the snap.