TD, or spot of ball please

[sm_bbcoach]

Situation is same for all 3, ball position is different. He is NOT pushed in any situation (and no call for hurdeling!!).


1) A32 runs to the outside and leaps for the goal line at the 2. The ball is the first to hit the INSIDE of the pylon, then his arms, then his knees at the 1.


2)A32 runs to the outside and leaps for the goal line at the 2. The ball is the first to hit the FRONT SIDE of the pylon, then his arms, then his knees at the 1.5.

3)A32 runs to the outside and leaps for the goal line at the 2. The ball is the first to hit the GROUND OUSTIDE of the pylon, then his arms, OOB, then his knees at the 1.


Give TD or ball position for all 3 situations and rules to back them up, please.

Thanks

[GeorgiaBlue]

1. Touchdown - rule 2-25-3; 8-2-1

2. Touchdown - rule 2-25-3; 8-2-1

3. need more information - you state outside the pylon - does that mean out of bounds? if so did the ball break the vertical plane before traveling out of bounds?

[GBFBUmp]

1 = TD Rule 2-25-3

2= TD - Rule 2-25-3 - Ball broke goal line extended b4 player was down in bounds

3- No TD - Rule 2-25-3, Case 2.25.3(b) - Player ended up OB, so breaking of goal line extended does not constitute TD. Ball is placed at foremost position of ball when it crossed the side line...... Need more info for specific spot as to where ball went OB, not player. Unless he was an acrobat, probably somewhere between goal line and 1yd line.... but can't be specific without that info.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by GBFBUmp
1 = TD Rule 2-25-3

2= TD - Rule 2-25-3 - Ball broke goal line extended b4 player was down in bounds

3- No TD - Rule 2-25-3, Case 2.25.3(b) - Player ended up OB, so breaking of goal line extended does not constitute TD. Ball is placed at foremost position of ball when it crossed the side line...... Need more info for specific spot as to where ball went OB, not player. Unless he was an acrobat, probably somewhere between goal line and 1yd line.... but can't be specific without that info.

So the "extended goal line" would only apply to a runner forced out by a defensive player? Ball went out between the 1 and GL. so you would bring the ball back to the spot where he left the field. Even if the ball hits where the EGL would be and is first to touch the ground.

Thanks

[mikesears]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach

So the "extended goal line" would only apply to a runner forced out by a defensive player? Ball went out between the 1 and GL. so you would bring the ball back to the spot where he left the field. Even if the ball hits where the EGL would be and is first to touch the ground.

Thanks

For an airborne player, the ball is placed when the foremost point of the ball was when the player crossed the plane of the sideline.

The goal line extended only applies to a player in contact with the ground.

Here are two plays that might help illustrate this.

A1 is running for the goalline. He has the ball in his outside arm. When he is at the B 1/2 yard line, the ball is over the sideline plane, but the player is still running inbounds. He crosses the goal line inbounds with the ball still over the sideline plane.

Ruling: Touchdown.

A1 is running for the goalline. He has the ball in his outside arm. When he is at the 2 yard line, he leaves his feet and dives toward the pylon and is contacted by B1. The ball crosses the plane of the sideline at the 1 yardline but the players momentum carries him to where he and the ball land out of bounds beyond the goal line extended. Ruling: Ball is placed where it crossed the plane of the sideline. A's ball at the 1 yard line.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: The only reason for the "goal line extended" is to cover the situation where a runner crosses the goal line inbounds but is holding the ball outside the pylon. In such a case, the ball never crossed the plane of the opponent's goal line itself.

[Mark Dexter]

Bob M., doesn't the goal line extended rule also apply to catching a pass that is outside of the inbounds line while standing in the EZ?

[cowbyfan1]

1 = TD Rule 2-25-3. since the ball hit the inside of the pylon then it had to break the goalline to get to that point.

2= No TD - see the other post above By Mikesears. Remember the Pylon is out of bounds.

3- No TD - Rule 2-25-3, Case 2.25.3(b) - Player ended up OB, so breaking of goal line extended does not constitute TD. Ball is placed at foremost position of ball when it crossed the side line...... Need more info for specific spot as to where ball went OB, not player. Unless he was an acrobat, probably somewhere between goal line and 1yd line.... but can't be specific without that info.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
1 = TD Rule 2-25-3. since the ball hit the inside of the pylon then it had to break the goalline to get to that point.

2= No TD - see the other post above By Mikesears. Remember the Pylon is out of bounds.

3- No TD - Rule 2-25-3, Case 2.25.3(b) - Player ended up OB, so breaking of goal line extended does not constitute TD. Ball is placed at foremost position of ball when it crossed the side line...... Need more info for specific spot as to where ball went OB, not player. Unless he was an acrobat, probably somewhere between goal line and 1yd line.... but can't be specific without that info.

First, back to the OP...hurdling is not merely "leaping" or "jumping over an opponent." See Rule 2-20 in the NF rulebook.

Also, maybe I'm having a brain fart on this, but isn't it a TD in #2? I'm not really in the mood right now to go "digging" for this, but I believe it does not matter which side of the pylon the ball hits.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by PSU213

First, back to the OP...hurdling is not merely "leaping" or "jumping over an opponent." See Rule 2-20 in the NF rulebook.

Also, maybe I'm having a brain fart on this, but isn't it a TD in #2? I'm not really in the mood right now to go "digging" for this, but I believe it does not matter which side of the pylon the ball hits.

According to the "comic book" "If a runner is not touching inbounds when the ball breaks the plane of the goal line extended, it is not a touchdown and the ball is spotted where it broke the sideline plane."
In play one the ball hit the inside of the pylon which means it did not cross the goalline extended, it crossed the goal line to get there. In play 2 and 3, since the pylon is sitting out of bounds the ball crossed the goal line extended and since the player was airborne the it is not a td. In play 2 mark the ball just short of the goal line. In play 3 probably about the half yard line.
Also per rule 2-28-2 the ball is considered out of bounds when it touches anything other then another player or offical.. As stated before, they pylon is out of bounds thus it is not a TD.

[GBFBUmp]

So, in # 2, if he first touched a hand on the ground at the 1/2yd line, he hit the ball against the front side of the pylon, it would then be a TD? I understand that touching anything out of bounds causes the ball to be out of bounds, but does that mean that the pylon breaks the goal line extended?

Also, (now I am sounding like my 5 year old who is constantly saying "but what if?") what if the player lands in bounds after the ball touches the front of the pylon, but before the ball touches the gound out of bounds. (I hope my feeble eyes never have to relay this timing to my addled brain).

Is there anything in the rule books that indicate the Pylon is really OB?

[ABoselli]

There is, it's in rule 1 I believe. Something like, "When positioned properly, the pylon is out of bounds at the ntersection of the sideline and the goal line extended".

BUT

You cannot place the ball short of the goal line when an airborne player hits the pylon with the ball. That's a touchdown, plain and simple. Where do you plan on placing it? At the .0000005 inch line? If the ball did indeed go OB, that's about the point where it did. The standard practice is if the ball touches the pylon and the runner is either airborn or touching inbounds, and has not gone OB prior to touching, it's a TD.

In every game at every level from pee-wee to the NFL, that's SOP.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by ABoselli
There is, it's in rule 1 I believe. Something like, "When positioned properly, the pylon is out of bounds at the ntersection of the sideline and the goal line extended".

BUT

You cannot place the ball short of the goal line when an airborne player hits the pylon with the ball. That's a touchdown, plain and simple. Where do you plan on placing it? At the .0000005 inch line? If the ball did indeed go OB, that's about the point where it did. The standard practice is if the ball touches the pylon and the runner is either airborn or touching inbounds, and has not gone OB prior to touching, it's a TD.

In every game at every level from pee-wee to the NFL, that's SOP.

OK. So by rule, if the ball hits the front of the pylon, it is OB. BUT we do not call it like that? Since the GLE only works for players who are on the ground, we will place the ball at the .00000000000000005 yd line {about thwere he went out}, ie just short of the GL.

The only thing your eyes / brain needs to determine, airborn, on ground; hits front or inside of pylon.

airborn: inside= TD; front= just short OOB
ground: TD either way.

Am I getting the gist of this?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Bob M., doesn't the goal line extended rule also apply to catching a pass that is outside of the inbounds line while standing in the EZ?

REPLY: I'm assuming you meant 'sideline' as opposed to 'inbounds line' and NO, I really don't think so. The definition of goal line (NF 2-25-3) includes the definition of the extension, but it refers to it solely in the context of a ball in a runner's possession. In a pass play into the endzone such as the one you describe, where the ball does not cross the plane of the goal line in a player's possession, the position of the ball itself is not really important. All that's important is whether the catch is completed, i.e. receiver's first contact with the ground is inbounds.

[kdf5]

Has anyone read Case Book 1.2.4? "Ball carrier A10 dives into the pylon at the intersection of the goal line and sidelines. RULING: Touchdown. Assuming the pylon was placed properly, the ball broke the plane of the goal line prior to the touching of the pylon".

Where does this fit into this argument?