1st Down or Not?

Patton · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 02:52pm

2nd and 5 for A. During the dead ball period, B commits and USC and then A commits an USC. Since B's USC was first, would A be awarded a new series because of B's penalty occuring first?

cmathews · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 02:54pm

yes that is how it would occur and it would be a first down for A...that is assuming there are no half the distance issues etc....

JugglingReferee · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 23, 2004, 06:09pm

These offset. Downs continue as normal.

Snake~eyes · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 09:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
yes that is how it would occur and it would be a first down for A...that is assuming there are no half the distance issues etc....

This is correct for NFHS but I believe NCAA is different.

MI Official · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 10:07am

Would it be 15 on B signal 1st down, then March on A and then first and 25???

GeorgiaBlue · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 10:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by MI Official
Would it be 15 on B signal 1st down, then March on A and then first and 25???

I think that depends if you have blown RFP or not.

Am I correct in assuming that you can have simultaneous US and therefore both would offset - but if there is truly a sequence of two separate US - then you would have 1st and 10.

Correct?

mcrowder · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 10:41am

NCAA, I'm offsetting these as written. The events would have to be unrelated, and separated by some time (like - I signaled 1 and started walking it off before the other occured), for me to make this 2 separate walk-offs.

ljudge · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 11:01am

It's first and 10 for A. The ONLY way it could be 1st and 25 (as was noted) is if the RFP has been given BEFORE team A committed their USC.

anspach21 · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 11:46am

Wouldnt you enforce each penalty in order of occurance?

Snake~eyes · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 24, 2004, 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by anspach21
Wouldnt you enforce each penalty in order of occurance?

Um, yes.

jransom · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 01, 2004, 08:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Patton
2nd and 5 for A. During the dead ball period, B commits and USC and then A commits an USC. Since B's USC was first, would A be awarded a new series because of B's penalty occuring first?

Sorry, guys, but I've got something different than the rest of you (speaking in NFHS here). For a sense of simplicity, I'm going to assume that there are no half-the-distance enforcements on this one, in which case I've got 2nd and 5 for A. If there is no "order of occurance", then they offset and you stay put. Even if there is an order, the technically correct thing to do is to march off 15 yards in one direction and then 15 back the other way which puts in where you started, 2nd and 5. No automatic 1st down.

Jonathan

cmathews · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 01, 2004, 09:12am

Jransom,
Anytime a ball is dead in A's possesion, in advance of the line to gain, after all live ball fouls have been considered, it is a first down. When you march of the 15 yards against B you are in advance of the LTG and therefore A has a first down. Now you march the 15 off against A reset the chains and it is 1st and 10 for A at the spot we started from..

mikesears · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 01, 2004, 09:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by jransom

Quote:

Originally posted by Patton
2nd and 5 for A. During the dead ball period, B commits and USC and then A commits an USC. Since B's USC was first, would A be awarded a new series because of B's penalty occuring first?

Sorry, guys, but I've got something different than the rest of you (speaking in NFHS here). For a sense of simplicity, I'm going to assume that there are no half-the-distance enforcements on this one, in which case I've got 2nd and 5 for A. If there is no "order of occurance", then they offset and you stay put. Even if there is an order, the technically correct thing to do is to march off 15 yards in one direction and then 15 back the other way which puts in where you started, 2nd and 5. No automatic 1st down.

Jonathan

A new series is awared after any 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul by B.

B fouled first. We factor this in and award A the new series. We then consider A's act, penalize it, and then the chains are set.

jransom · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 02, 2004, 03:44am

Good posts, sears & mathews. I found the rule on awarding a new series and I get it. 5-1-2a and 5-2-3

Let's make sure everyone who read this thread understands this (including me

). By the way, that editorial change "dead-ball foul by B" was just added this year, so I don't understand why there's no updated case play (unless I overlooked).

Situation: 2nd & 3 at A's 24. A21 runs for a gain of 6 and then A67 piles on.
My understanding: Because the LTG was reached by live-ball action, A will be awarded a new series. Since the dead-ball foul by A occurred prior to the RFP, the chains will not be set until after penalty administration. 1st & 10 at A's 15.

Anybody agree or disagree?

Jonathan

chiefgil · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 02, 2004, 10:05am

But be ready to explain that one to the defensive coach, because he will surely want to know why you are screwing him.