Blown Call

[Hand Signals]

Many "Blindsided" hits seem to draw a flag. Just because a player is blindsided doesn't mean he was blocked in the back. His concentration is on the runner and in many instances his head is turned. If I am working a wing and this occurs on my side and I am within an earshot of the coach I yell "Clean Hit" so he knows I was watching and what my opinion is right now.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bjudge
RUTLEDGE,

I would be the first to admit I have had my share of bad calls. As one official in my association says, you only learn from your bad calls. Also, I have had my share of games where there was a bad call. If and when I make a mistake, I dont mind another official giving me good criticism and I dont have a problem eating my flag and waving it off if I am wrong. I guess the thing that rubbed me the wrong way this time around was the WM didnt seem to care or admit he could have made a mistake. If I throw my flag, I make sure I am a 100% right. I would rather make a bad call and keep my flag in my pocket, then to throw my flag and call a bad penalty.

You only have about 2 years of varsity experience. That is not very long compared to many here. All I am saying you will make a call that your partners will not agree with. It does they are right.

It was just one block in the back call. If that was the only call you or anyone does not agree with, that sounds like he had a good game. You are coming here and making it sound like the game was lost because of this one call. If you work long enough at this, you will have many more calls you are not going to agree with. We are not perfect. You might need to see it on tape and see if the foul was different. As a WH, I would not care what your opinion was. Trust your partner.

Peace

[Patsfan2431]

Guys,

My opinion is simply this, come together and talk. Communication is key for all crews at any level. Come together, talk about what happened. I dont care if it takes five minutes, our job is to get it right. Cant really comment on the play because i wasn't there, but it seems the communication def. was absent.

[SouthGARef]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

Does this matter? If so, please provide citation. I can't find where a block in the back constitutes between the shoulder blades. I have looked a t 9-3-5 and 2-17-4 and neither refers to this specific action.

I don't know what the official definition of an IBB is in Rule 2. I do know in the rules simplified and illustrated book, it pretty much says that for IBB to be called the INITIAL contact must come from behind, and on the numbers.

[bjudge]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

Does this matter? If so, please provide citation. I can't find where a block in the back constitutes between the shoulder blades. I have looked a t 9-3-5 and 2-17-4 and neither refers to this specific action.

Rule 2.5.2 Blocking in the back against an opponent when the initial contact is in the opponents back, INSIDE THE SHOULDERS and below the helmet and above the waist....

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by bjudge


Rule 2.5.2 Blocking in the back against an opponent when the initial contact is in the opponents back, INSIDE THE SHOULDERS and below the helmet and above the waist....

duh...thanks...

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
Guys,

My opinion is simply this, come together and talk. Communication is key for all crews at any level. Come together, talk about what happened. I dont care if it takes five minutes, our job is to get it right. Cant really comment on the play because i wasn't there, but it seems the communication def. was absent.

Coming together is not going to solve anything if the calling official feels he saw the play.

I think this is splitting hairs. Both officials saw two different things, it does not mean you have to "get it right" in that situation.

Peace

[Patsfan2431]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Coming together is not going to solve anything if the calling official feels he saw the play.

I think this is splitting hairs. Both officials saw two different things, it does not mean you have to "get it right" in that situation.

Peace

I cant disagree more. Our job is to "get it right". When a call like this occurs during a game my crew works, we play a game called "what did you see". The officials involved in the foul/non-foul/enforcement come together with the referee and we explain what we saw. In every situation, another official may have had a better angle or may have noticed something before the foul that would help with the enforcement. I have experienced instances on the high school and NCAA level where communication can really help during a call like this.

In addition, if the calling offical "feels" he has the play right, and another official who also saw the play has a different "feeling", then a conference is a must. Its possible that one official didnt see the whole play. So to your comment that coming together will not solve anything, your right, it wont. Because the correct call may not have been called.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
I cant disagree more. Our job is to "get it right".

I have heard this all the time. Where does it say that? Can you give me a mechanics book, a rulebook or any publication that the rules committee signs off on that agrees with that statement?

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
When a call like this occurs during a game my crew works, we play a game called "what did you see". The officials involved in the foul/non-foul/enforcement come together with the referee and we explain what we saw. In every situation, another official may have had a better angle or may have noticed something before the foul that would help with the enforcement. I have experienced instances on the high school and NCAA level where communication can really help during a call like this.

You are missing the point. No one has said communication is not good. But if I see one thing and you see something else, someone has to back down. If I made a call and you did not, it is my choice to take your advice. Maybe I am a more experience and I do not believe the younger official? There could be all kind of reasons I or any official that makes a call stand by their call. What you tell me is not going to automatically change that.

Originally posted by Patsfan2431
In addition, if the calling offical "feels" he has the play right, and another official who also saw the play has a different "feeling", then a conference is a must. Its possible that one official didnt see the whole play. So to your comment that coming together will not solve anything, your right, it wont. Because the correct call may not have been called.

My comment about coming together is not going to solve anything, is that the calling officials can easily dismiss the opinion of the non-calling official. We are not talking about a tipped pass and there is a DPI called despite the tipped pass (as took place in the Bears-Vikings game yesterday). We are talking about strictly judgment. You cannot change a call based strictly on judgment. The rules do not allow it and as a WH I would not allow it.

You cannot just change a call because you think it was wrong. You have to have more information than, “no it wasn't."

Peace

[bjudge]

[/B][/QUOTE]
I cant disagree more. Our job is to "get it right". [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Patsfan. Although it is almost impossible to have a debate on every call, I beleive officials should communicate on big calls like in my scenario. The block in the back which is in question, called back a touchdown. If we were to assume I was right for the sake of argument, someone's bad call just cheated the player out of a good play.

There are some officials that try to be a detectives in making calls, while other officials try to be a mediator and use common sense in making calls. If you have someone on your crew that is flag happy, it could bring down the whole crew and a good game. That is why communication is important.

[Edited by bjudge on Sep 27th, 2004 at 07:23 PM]

[JRutledge]

bjudge,

Let us say for the sake of argument you missed the call? Now what? Should we now change the call on wrong information? When is the call right? When is the call wrong? See the problem you have created? You have two officials that do not agree on a "judgment call" and which person are we going to go with? Are we going to go with the guy that has more experience? Are we going to go with the official that had the better angle? How do we resolve this? When do we change the call and when do we not? If the call was so obvious, why was the coach chewing on the kid and not the official?

This is not as easy as you would like this to be. There are a lot of areas of gray that play apart in this. He threw the flag and saw something, you better have more information than, “I saw it a different way" in my opinion.

Peace

[Texoma_LJ]

Rut, I mean no disrespect and I have learned alot from referees with more experience. But alot of your comments seem like that you have no faith in officials without alot of on the field experience. Because an official is new does not mean they dont "see" things correctly. I would tend to wager that I spend more time studying than alot of other officials that have 10 times more experience than I do. I am willing to spend whatever energy and time is necessary to get better, but not if it means that I am going to work with people that dont care what I bring to the table.
To say that there is 'no need for discussion' and 'getting things right are not relevant' is really demoralizing to hear as a young official. Makes me think that even if I KNOW !!! and I mean KNOW that I am right, that I shouldnt bother because I wont have any weight in the discussion with the WH. I thought the idea was to get it right, if it isnt that... then what is it ???

[OverAndBack]

JRut - but can I overrule you?







JUST KIDDING! I don't want you know who to come back!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
Rut, I mean no disrespect and I have learned alot from referees with more experience. But alot of your comments seem like that you have no faith in officials without alot of on the field experience.

Comments like what? This is not about experience or lack of experience. I am just living in the real world. If you are a younger official, you better make sure you are correct when you try to "question" their call. It better not just be a judgment situation that you are taking an issue with. Now I have 9 years of varsity experience and the experience and the knowledge of the officials I am working with are important. What do you think a 20 year veteran with a couple of State Titles under their belt think of a two year official? What do you think a coach thinks of the two year official as compared to the State Final Official or crew?

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
Because an official is new does not mean they dont "see" things correctly. I would tend to wager that I spend more time studying than alot of other officials that have 10 times more experience than I do.

This has nothing to do with a new official or not a new official. But if you are a rookie, you better be sure you are right. The veteran might get the benefit of the doubt and the rookie have eliminated himself from future assignments. Especially if the tape does not back you up.

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
I am willing to spend whatever energy and time is necessary to get better, but not if it means that I am going to work with people that dont care what I bring to the table.

That is life. Officiating is not much different than any other aspect of sports. An Emmitt Smith has much more respect amongst his peers as compared to a Quentin Griffin. One has been to Super Bowls and one MVP awards and the other has just had one big game in his career. Dude that is just the way it is until you prove yourself as an official.

Originally posted by Texoma_LJ
To say that there is 'no need for discussion' and 'getting things right are not relevant' is really demoralizing to hear as a young official. Makes me think that even if I KNOW !!! and I mean KNOW that I am right, that I shouldnt bother because I wont have any weight in the discussion with the WH. I thought the idea was to get it right, if it isnt that... then what is it ???

I have a saying on my crew, “if you call it they are guilty." I do not question my partners or my partner's calls. I do not care if you are a 20 year veteran or a 1 year rookie. I do not question my partner's calls not matter what I think I saw. I will provide information that will help them make a call, but I am not changing it when I have a different angle and probably a different look. I work 3 sports and in all of them I work with my partners as a team. We are not a bunch of individuals out there; we work together as a unit. If you are coming to me as the WH about a fellow officials call, you did not do your job. You should have went to the calling official and asked them what you saw. By the time it comes to me it is too late. For one as a WH I probably did not see the play that warranted the flag. I am not going to just take your opinion over the person that threw the flag. If that bothers you, well that is just too bad. As the WH I am not there to make friends, I am there to run the game. The game runs better when our partner's calls are not questioned. What is to say that when he does that to you, he is correct? Are we going to spend the entire night changing calls because another official thinks the call is wrong?

Let me say this too. I am a veteran like many others. I do not consider myself as at the top, but I have been held responsible for the actions of younger officials at times by assignors or evaluators because I was the "senior" official on the game. I earned that right through hard work and proving myself when I was given a big opportunity. That is the case in all the sports I work. But I have been the young guy (and I still am sometimes) in games where I am the one wet behind the ears. I worked a big game last year in the basketball season where I was the only non-playoff, non-state final official on a big game. It was obvious what my role was and it was not to tell my partners what I think I can or cannot do. I work on a football crew every Saturday where I am the only official that has not worked a single state final as well. I had to earn their respect for a couple of years working with them. I probably have done that, but still have to be careful how I work with that crew. If it is going to bother you to have a veteran tell you to watch your place, then you are going to have a lot of problems in this officiating thing. That is going to come with the territory. And yes, if you see something and all you have is a different judgment, you might find yourself getting a bad reputation for your attitude.

This is meant to be a slam at all. I understand your point of view, but the experience level of an official means a lot. You have to prove yourself on many levels before you start telling fellow officials what you have. That even applies sometimes with fellow veteran officials so you will have problems if you cannot deal with that part of it.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Sep 27th, 2004 at 09:26 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
JRut - but can I overrule you?







JUST KIDDING! I don't want you know who to come back!

someone was going to bring that up.

Peace