Canadian Sitch (J read this one)

[JugglingReferee]

Ok, so I had this today and it sparked some debate at half time. Julian, especially, what do you think? Please try not to look at the white book.

(Mechanics sidenote for ref18, since Cdn mechs are different. 4-person crew, I'm the short side guy, therefore am the free guy. So I bail because I got 2 WRs going deep. It becomes obvious the QB is not passing, so I come back to the play. I was only about 8 yards downfield.)


Team A 3D/3 at A-37. Team A passer boots left, towards my side of the field (hence me coming back to the play), and pitches it to a teammate just as a defender approaches him. Turns out the pitch was in a forward direction. So I flag. The R also flags. After the ball is dead, the R and I discuss. Turns out the passer was past the LS (at the A-41).

What's the call?

[ref18]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee



Team A 3D/3 at A-37. Team A passer boots left, towards my side of the field (hence me coming back to the play), and pitches it to a teammate just as a defender approaches him. Turns out the pitch was in a forward direction. So I flag. The R also flags. After the ball is dead, the R and I discuss. Turns out the passer was past the LS (at the A-41).

What's the call?

So after reading through this play a few times, I see an offside pass, which would make the point of next scrimmage at the A-41 (point of origin of the offside pass). I assume that's why you threw the flag. If there's something I missed, let me know.

Were you at University Stadium?? Because the trainer that was on my game on Friday night was saying that he had to be at University Stadium today at 8:30AM. So, did you have to get up that early to referee football???

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18

So after reading through this play a few times, I see an offside pass, which would make the point of next scrimmage at the A-41 (point of origin of the offside pass). I assume that's why you threw the flag. If there's something I missed, let me know.

Were you at University Stadium?? Because the trainer that was on my game on Friday night was saying that he had to be at University Stadium today at 8:30AM. So, did you have to get up that early to referee football???

Yes, it was at Univ Stadium. I had the 12:30 and 2:30 pm games. I got to sleep in, but had to endure the heat.

In the sitch, the passer was beyond the LS and threw the ball forward. Lemme know if you want to change your answer.

I see that Tom is doing well in the CFL.

[ref18]

Now I pull out the good ole "white book", and look down in 6.3.4 and see that situation 4 outlines an illegal forward pass . Which is what occured here.

The penalty for this would be a loss of 10 yards and DR. I would think that the distance would be applied at the PLS, but am not quite sure of that.

Tom did really well this year, I had hoped to go see a few of his games, but only managed to make it to one.

[ref18]

Mike, thanks for posting that question, because as I was refreshing myself with Rule 6, I came upon the answer to one of the questions I had trouble with on the exam. You might remeber me posting this.

A kick which is blocked in an offside direction may be legally recovered by any player.


This is covered in 6.3.5(2).

Now I know why I couldn't find it, who'd expect a ruling about a kick to be listed in the Passing Rule.

Good thing the exam isn't due for a few more weeks

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
Now I pull out the good ole "white book", and look down in 6.3.4 and see that situation 4 outlines an illegal forward pass . Which is what occured here.

The penalty for this would be a loss of 10 yards and DR. I would think that the distance would be applied at the PLS, but am not quite sure of that.

Tom did really well this year, I had hoped to go see a few of his games, but only managed to make it to one.

I think I may have tricked you.

The rules to have nearby are 6.3.3.1 and 6.3.4.4.

6.3.3.1 says that a general occurance of an offside pass is when an A player makes an offside pass after he has crossed the LS.

6.3.4.4 says that an offside pass does not occur when, on a scrimmage play, A player crosses the LS and throws what is obviously intended to be a forward pass, and is ruled to be an illegal forward pass. Therefore, if the motion is not obvious to be a forward pass, it must be flagged for an offside pass.

The catch phrase in my original text was "...pitches it to a teammate just as a defender approaches him...". In this case, the passer just executed the option (pitch) to his teammate as the B player had committed to the passer. The pass was offside, likely because it was not executed properly.

This is one of the rules where we do have to do our best to know what the intent of the player is. (There's the old adage that we can't read player's minds, and therefore don't know their intent in some cases.) I feel his intent was to lateral the ball to his teammate to avoid being tackled once the B player was committed to the passer.

I had the 3 other guys on my crew try to tell me that it should have been an illlegal forward pass. When I showed them those two passages in the white book after the game and in the dressing room, they agreed with me.

I mention it because I was raked over the coals 4 years ago doing an OV game. I never forgot that learning moment.

So anyways, what else was cool was that this happened after the 3MW. The player was tackled inbounds. When does the clock start?

So, yes, your original message was correct. The NLS is the A-41, and YG, so it's 1D/10.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Sep 4th, 2004 at 09:30 PM]

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
Mike, thanks for posting that question, because as I was refreshing myself with Rule 6, I came upon the answer to one of the questions I had trouble with on the exam. You might remeber me posting this.

A kick which is blocked in an offside direction may be legally recovered by any player.


This is covered in 6.3.5(2).

Now I know why I couldn't find it, who'd expect a ruling about a kick to be listed in the Passing Rule.

Good thing the exam isn't due for a few more weeks

Ah yes, the wonders of the white book.

Have you check out the Educational materials posted at our website?

[ref18]

So, it was an offside pass, and an offside pass isn't a foul, so under 1.5.1h,

Time starts:

when the ball is snapped after the penalty application for a foul that occurs after the 3MW...

So time would start on the RFP.


Nothing get's a rule stuck in your head like screwing it up the first time That's how I've learned quite a few rules in both basketball and football

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
So, it was an offside pass, and an offside pass isn't a foul, so under 1.5.1h,

Time starts:

when the ball is snapped after the penalty application for a foul that occurs after the 3MW...

So time would start on the RFP.


Nothing get's a rule stuck in your head like screwing it up the first time That's how I've learned quite a few rules in both basketball and football

EXACTLY! Good job!!!

[ref18]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

Ah yes, the wonders of the white book.

Have you check out the Educational materials posted at our website?

I haven't before, but I'm looking through them now, the "offside pass challenge" looks useful

You did a really good job with the signals, and then a good explanation of the signal in a little bubble when you move the mouse over it. And having the penalty signals arranged by the distance is a good idea. It's really cool.

[ref18]

The wonders of Dial-up internet, unfortunatley, at this time of night, the phone line is pretty much tied up, my time on the internet ends at 10 at which time my sister will be on. Until we get some form of high speed our daytime use is restricted, and our night-time use is schedueled

If you want to set up a daytime phone call that'd be better, I got your number down, so I guess you'd probably want to take it off the message board. Give me a good time to give you a call during the day, if that's alright with you.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
The wonders of Dial-up internet, unfortunatley, at this time of night, the phone line is pretty much tied up, my time on the internet ends at 10 at which time my sister will be on. Until we get some form of high speed our daytime use is restricted, and our night-time use is schedueled

If you want to set up a daytime phone call that'd be better, I got your number down, so I guess you'd probably want to take it off the message board. Give me a good time to give you a call during the day, if that's alright with you.

Ok... tomorrow at noon?

[Rich]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

I think I may have tricked you.

The rules to have nearby are 6.3.3.1 and 6.3.4.4.

6.3.3.1 says that a general occurance of an offside pass is when an A player makes an offside pass after he has crossed the LS.

6.3.4.4 says that an offside pass does not occur when, on a scrimmage play, A player crosses the LS and throws what is obviously intended to be a forward pass, and is ruled to be an illegal forward pass. Therefore, if the motion is not obvious to be a forward pass, it must be flagged for an offside pass.

The catch phrase in my original text was "...pitches it to a teammate just as a defender approaches him...". In this case, the passer just executed the option (pitch) to his teammate as the B player had committed to the passer. The pass was offside, likely because it was not executed properly.

This is one of the rules where we do have to do our best to know what the intent of the player is. (There's the old adage that we can't read player's minds, and therefore don't know their intent in some cases.) I feel his intent was to lateral the ball to his teammate to avoid being tackled once the B player was committed to the passer.

I had the 3 other guys on my crew try to tell me that it should have been an illlegal forward pass. When I showed them those two passages in the white book after the game and in the dressing room, they agreed with me.

I mention it because I was raked over the coals 4 years ago doing an OV game. I never forgot that learning moment.

So anyways, what else was cool was that this happened after the 3MW. The player was tackled inbounds. When does the clock start?

So, yes, your original message was correct. The NLS is the A-41, and YG, so it's 1D/10.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Sep 4th, 2004 at 09:30 PM]

Just a comment from a 'Merican. Reading your rule situations makes me think you are playing an entirely different sport up there -- interesting nonetheless.

[JugglingReferee]

I've actually thought about ordering a Fed football rule book to see what I can learn.

I'm interested int eh 5-person mechanics, as we do so little of 5-person. If we need more than 4, we usually use 6. Bean bag usage also interests me and I wish we used the bb in Canadian amateur ball.

I've got a fairly good grasp of the white book, so I'm eager to learn something with a bit of a curve.

[ref18]

And I'm back on,

Mike I'll give you a ring at 12 tomorrow.

It's amazing how different the Canadian and American football games are, on Friday night, I had an exhibition "game" between two varsity teams, who are going down south to play some football, and they wanted the games officiated using American rules, now the assignor couldn't mention this when he gave the game, one of the other officials told me on the way, so our pregame consisted of the basic differences. It was an interesting game.

I'm still in the process of learning the whitebook, as football was completely foreign to me before my uncle asked me to start officiating. I'll stick to that for a few more years