Over Turning Officials calls

[ref18]

I'm talking about Canadian rules, where a block in the back is 15, and a push from the back is 10. Completely different from the American rules.

[Snake~eyes]

I don't think there is a 10 yard penalty for block in the back in Canadian.

[Middleman]

Originally posted by James Neil

New for 2003, Clipping is a block from behind at or below the waist.

The proper call is illegal block in the back, a ten yard penalty (9-3-5). [/QUOTE]

Gentleman, Where you all been? The block in the back provision was instituted in 2002

You know what ... you are absolutely right. Here I am comparing my 2001 book to 2003 and seeing the difference, brian dead and oblivious to the fact that I had the wrong book out. No wonder the change isn't shaded! DUH! ... now where did I put that 2002?!

Thanks for pointing that out. As I said, we have been enforcing it that way for years, so the actual rule change for us was seamless.

[Rich]

I was working a game last season -- a midweek game with a crew I had never seen before. I threw a flag on a return and went to the crew's white hat to report the foul. IBB, 26, return team.

He signals a clip.

I hear him tell the umpire to mark 15. I stop him and told him that the block was above the waist, that it was only 10 and shot him the right signal. He looked at me like I was from Mars. I swear. In 2003 with a rule change that went into place the previous season. Ugh. Why I normally like to be the white hat, if I can help it

Rich

[Snake~eyes]

Wow thats not very good.

I like when you WH too.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
isn't there a push from the rear, but its only 10 yards?? That's what everyone (fans) reffer to as clipping, so i just assumed it was what clipping equated to in the Canadian rules., i had no idea about the below the waist factor.

You can tell everyone watches a bit too much NFL as if that were possible.

Funny story, I was timing a high school game, and the coaches for one team, were yelling because the ref didn't call a "personal foul" on a facemask call. Then the line judge came over and explained to them that there's no such thing in the Canadian rules. I had a bit of a laugh over that.

[Edited by ref18 on Dec 31st, 2003 at 11:12 AM]

Correct - we do have a 10 yard variety, but it is called an Illegal Block. It is many times called a Push from the Rear.

I believe that Blocking From The Rear is the foul we have that is closest to "clipping". Note that this 15 yard foul is not a UR, so no auto 1D.

I've had the same coach in each of the past 3 seasons in the Sr. OV tell me that his DBs can chuck up to 5 yards downfield. I called a player of his on it last year, and another game I was working of his this year had it called (by another official). The R explained it to him at half-time and I thought to myself, "I had this exact same conversation with you last year." Nice memory. Agreed... there's too much TV influence in some coaches.

Personal Foul. False Start. Touchback. Never heard of 'em!

[SeanWest]

Everyone seems to agree this should have been *some kind* of penalty.

I'm still curious as to why it was waived off in the original story...

-Sean---

[Rich]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Wow thats not very good.

I like when you WH too.

Do I know you?

[Snake~eyes]

I don't think so.

[Ed Hickland]

As the LJ was turning back around to observe the runner, the offesive player removed his hands from the defensive players' back. The runner scored.

I met the LJ at his flag and asked if he had a block in the back. The LJ replied "yes". I then asked him "what did you see?".....He told me that he had seen the player "with his hands on the defensive players' back"......I then told him what I saw......I then said unless you tell me otherwise we're going to wave it off.....the touchdown play stood.

Originally posted by SeanWest
Everyone seems to agree this should have been *some kind* of penalty.

I'm still curious as to why it was waived off in the original story...

-Sean---

Here is my interpretation for what it is worth.

LJ saw a hand on the back and flagged it while continuing to officiate. The trailing R saw the player remove his hand without completing the block and his interpretation was no advantage was gained, wave off the flag.

As the WH I cover in pregame what to do when two officials see different views. If the R is not involved the officials are to determine between themselves what occurred and one will report it to the R. My thought is unless the R was an observing official his involvement might indicate he made the decision. As the R, I only involve myself in the conference when there appears to be disagreement and someone needs to be the arbiter that makes the decision.

[Rich]

If I'm the R, I'm asking the flagging official what he saw. If he tells me he's CERTAIN he had a foul, I'm not going to overrule him even if I think it's not a foul.

He may have seen something from his angle I didn't. Now, if he admits he doesn't know, I may try to get him to come around to my way of thinking -- but I'm not going to overrule him just because my hat's a different color.

Rich

[Snake~eyes]

I like your thinking Rich. I agree, if I'm WH I'm not going to be a nazi about it. I'm going to walk over, tell him what I saw, ask him what he thinks. He can decide if its a foul or not.

[Rick KY]

Had this play in a game this season.

On 1st & 10, QB A1 rolls wide right and throws the ball deep out of bounds to avoid a sack. Obviously intentional grounding, and R had the flag down.

On the enforcement, I am working the chains, telling the box man to set it and it's now 2nd down with loss of down, after I walked off 5 yards from end of run. When I look up I see the ball is placed by U 5 yards from previous spot, not from the end of run, about 4 yards difference. So I give a couple short blows into my whistle to get R's attention. Then I run out to tell them they spotted the ball in the wrong place, a result of improper enforcement. I was the only member of the crew who was certain of this, and consequently R would not reassess the yardage properly, but would leave it as it was. After about 30 seconds of discussion, I said "well if I can't convince you otherwise we should go from here and move on". And I went back to my position and we continued the game.

Once back in the locker room we checked the rulebook, and they were all convinced.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Rick KY
Had this play in a game this season.

On 1st & 10, QB A1 rolls wide right and throws the ball deep out of bounds to avoid a sack. Obviously intentional grounding, and R had the flag down.

On the enforcement, I am working the chains, telling the box man to set it and it's now 2nd down with loss of down, after I walked off 5 yards from end of run. When I look up I see the ball is placed by U 5 yards from previous spot, not from the end of run, about 4 yards difference. So I give a couple short blows into my whistle to get R's attention. Then I run out to tell them they spotted the ball in the wrong place, a result of improper enforcement. I was the only member of the crew who was certain of this, and consequently R would not reassess the yardage properly, but would leave it as it was. After about 30 seconds of discussion, I said "well if I can't convince you otherwise we should go from here and move on". And I went back to my position and we continued the game.

Once back in the locker room we checked the rulebook, and they were all convinced.

Had just the opposite last season. Fourth and 5. QB rolled out toward the LJ and as he was about to get sacked threw the ball into an area without receivers. LJ tossed his flag (that is a subject for another discussion) for an IG.

I was ready to enforce a five-yard penalty against the offense and then turn the ball over to B when my crew said I was wrong. B could not get the penalty and the ball. I argued the penalty gets enforced with a loss of down the ball goes over to B on downs. I gave in being in the minority.

The halftime discussion was, after the chewing out about an LJ throwing an IG flag, I was right and how to enforce fourth down penalties with loss of down.

[Snake~eyes]

Good call Ed, good thing you didn't kick that one.