Over Turning Officials calls

wedickinson · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 30, 2003, 04:54pm

I think it would be interesting discussion to talk about on field experiences with officials calls that were discussed and changed duing the game....

How does everyone out there handle it?

Do you discuss in pregame?

How does the crew handle dealing with it, especially from an ego situation?

I had a situation where I was trailing a play down the sideline, the line judge was in front of me by 10-15 yards. As the runner was passing the LJ, he glimpsed over his left shoulder and observed an offensive player with his hands on a defensive players' back. He turned back around and dropped a flag.

As the LJ was turning back around to observe the runner, the offesive player removed his hands from the defensive players' back. The runner scored.

I met the LJ at his flag and asked if he had a block in the back. The LJ replied "yes". I then asked him "what did you see?".....He told me that he had seen the player "with his hands on the defensive players' back"......I then told him what I saw......I then said unless you tell me otherwise we're going to wave it off.....the touchdown play stood.

I immediately went to the defensive teams sideline and presented the discussion to the head coach.

bluezebra · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 30, 2003, 08:17pm

Why didn't you accept the LJ's call? From your description, you didn't see the ENTIRE play.

Bob

ref18 · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 30, 2003, 10:07pm

The way its usually done in my association, is that if someone sees something differently, he'll come up to the referee, and tell him, then the ref'll call over the calling officail, give the new info, and ask the official if he still stands behind his call. If the official still stands behind the call, it stands, if he doesn't the ref'll wave it off.

Rich · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 30, 2003, 11:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
Why didn't you accept the LJ's call? From your description, you didn't see the ENTIRE play.

Bob

Probably just another white hat who thinks his opinion is the only one that matters.

SeanWest · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 12:26am

wedickinson,

I'm an amature at this so maybe there's something I don't get that is obvious to y'all who have a better understanding of the rules.

There is something in your story that is not clear to me...

You saw what the flagging official saw, you knew why he threw the flag and what he thought the foul was... but what did you see that made you think it should be waved off?

Just to be clear, are we right in assuming you were the white hat making the executive decision on the play?

-Sean---

ref18 · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 12:32am

Quote:

Originally posted by SeanWest
wedickinson,

I'm an amature at this so maybe there's something I don't get that is obvious to y'all who have a better understanding of the rules.

There is something in your story that is not clear to me...

You saw what the flagging official saw, you knew why he threw the flag and what he thought the foul was... but what did you see that made you think it should be waved off?

Just to be clear, are we right in assuming you were the white hat making the executive decision on the play?

-Sean---

A very good point. From what i've read, the play sounds like a textbook example of clipping. That's what i would've called. Why did you wave off the flag??

Middleman · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 01:12am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ref18

Quote:

From what i've read, the play sounds like a textbook example of clipping. That's what i would've called.

New for 2003, Clipping is a block from behind at or below the waist.

The proper call is illegal block in the back, a ten yard penalty (9-3-5).

ref18 · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 01:29am

well i've now learned something new. Thanks middleman.

Snake~eyes · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 02:23am

Is it really new for 2003?

Anyways this is a common misconception by coaches.

Middleman · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 06:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Is it really new for 2003?

Anyways this is a common misconception by coaches.

Pardon me, my FED is showing!

Yep, the rule is new for FED this year. Until this year, Clipping was "charging or falling into the back ... of an opponent" and specifically included "Pushing by use of hands or arms on an opponent's back." This year they split them "to more clearly differentiate between the two actions." Of course the NFL and NCAA have had IBB for awhile.

Fact is, many of us have been calling it this way for years (mostly because the big boys do). Instead of clipping, which we called when a player charged into an opponents back usually knocking him down, we would call illegal use of the hands for blocking outside the opponent's frame (2-3-2b & 9-2-1a).

The effect was the same - 15 yards for a clip, 10 yards for a block in the back. The NFHS has been "experimenting" with it in several states, and finally codified it in 2003.

Bob M. · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 09:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
The way its usually done in my association, is that if someone sees something differently, he'll come up to the referee, and tell him, then the ref'll call over the calling officail, give the new info, and ask the official if he still stands behind his call. If the official still stands behind the call, it stands, if he doesn't the ref'll wave it off.

REPLY: Personally, I disagree with this technique. I think you stand a better chance of alienating the calling official by going to the R without him. It would certainly make a better case for bruised egos and hurt feelings. It could even undermine the effectiveness of the crew going forward. Both my HS and our college association recommend that the 'questioning' official go directly to the calling official--before he has the opportunity to report his foul to the R--and ask him specifically what he saw. The R will wait, away from that conversation, until the two officials work it out. Then the calling official will go to the R and either report his foul, or tell the R to wave it off. If the two officials cannot reach consensus, then they both go to the R and present their case. Only in this latter situation will the R exercise "executive privilege."

JugglingReferee · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 11:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by ref18
well i've now learned something new. Thanks middleman.

ref18,

There is no such thing as clipping in Canadian rules. It is Blocking From The Rear and it has not been revised - it is 15 yards.

ref18 · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 12:03pm

isn't there a push from the rear, but its only 10 yards?? That's what everyone (fans) reffer to as clipping, so i just assumed it was what clipping equated to in the Canadian rules., i had no idea about the below the waist factor.

You can tell everyone watches a bit too much NFL as if that were possible.

Funny story, I was timing a high school game, and the coaches for one team, were yelling because the ref didn't call a "personal foul" on a facemask call. Then the line judge came over and explained to them that there's no such thing in the Canadian rules. I had a bit of a laugh over that.

[Edited by ref18 on Dec 31st, 2003 at 11:12 AM]

James Neil · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 12:10pm

B][/QUOTE]

New for 2003, Clipping is a block from behind at or below the waist.

The proper call is illegal block in the back, a ten yard penalty (9-3-5). [/B][/QUOTE]Gentleman, Where you all been? The block in the back provision was instituted in 2002

Snake~eyes · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 31, 2003, 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by James Neil
Gentleman, Where you all been? The block in the back provision was instituted in 2002

That's what I thought James... I thought I was going crazy

Ref18, Block in the Back is 10, Clipping is 15.