Liveball vs deadball USC

[Altor]

Just checking, as I do not see anything super-special about this penalty enforcement.

Ball on A45, 3rd and 10. A5 takes snap in shotgun formation, takes a couple steps backward and drops to a knee on A38. R throws flag for USC on Team A that occurs a) during the down; or b) after the down.

In a) The basic spot is the succeeding spot for the USC (10-4-5-a). 15 yards from the enforcement spot based on ABO. Repeat 3rd down.

In b) The basic spot is the succeeding spot for both USC and a dead ball penalties (10-4-5-a and 10-4-5-b). 15 yards from the basic spot. 4th down.

In both a and b, game clock starts on the ready.


Edit: I should note that both of these assume the penalty is accepted. Team B may choose to decline the penalty, which in both a) and b) would make it 4th down from the succeeding spot. Clock on the ready.

[JRutledge]

The NF rule says all USC fouls are succeeding spot fouls, live or dead ball, and the down counts on both situations as well.

That is pretty clear in 10-5.

Peace

[Altor]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is pretty clear in 10-5.

I'm apparently having trouble with it.

10-5-1-c lists unfair acts and references 9-9. A USC by a player is not an unfair act as defined in 9-9, it is an unsportsmanlike act defined in 9-5. The fouls in 9-5 are not referenced anywhere else in 10-5-1.

10-5-2,3,4,5,& 6 don't apply to this play as described.

[Altor]

OK. I see something now under "Football Fundamentals" that explains this. It would be nice if they put that in the actual rule for penalty enforcement, because Rules 9 and 10 do not make that clear on their own.

[JRutledge]

I'm sorry, I reference 10-5 instead of 10-4-5.

It clearly says that the basic spot is the succeeding spot and 10-4-5a says, "For an unsportsmanlike foul.

It is right in the rule.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Altor

Just checking, as I do not see anything super-special about this penalty enforcement.

Ball on A45, 3rd and 10. A5 takes snap in shotgun formation, takes a couple steps backward and drops to a knee on A38. R throws flag for USC on Team A that occurs a) during the down; or b) after the down.

What I'd like to know is, if they're taking a knee, what business does any official have seeing USC unless it's a disqualifying and reportable-to-the-league foul?

[HLin NC]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What I'd like to know is, if they're taking a knee, what business does any official have seeing USC unless it's a disqualifying and reportable-to-the-league foul?

Who said anything about taking a knee correlating to the USC foul?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Who said anything about taking a knee correlating to the USC foul?

I think he is wondering what could happen in that situation where you have to even call a USC foul? I can see it happening, but I also do not see this as something to go looking for either.

Peace

[Altor]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm sorry, I reference 10-5 instead of 10-4-5.

It clearly says that the basic spot is the succeeding spot and 10-4-5a says, "For an unsportsmanlike foul.

It is right in the rule.

Peace

Yes, it says that's the basic spot. But, it doesn't say anything about not applying ABO. And it doesn't say that you don't replay the down. That information is in the "Football Fundamentals" section.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What I'd like to know is, if they're taking a knee, what business does any official have seeing USC unless it's a disqualifying and reportable-to-the-league foul?

There is a lot more to this play that I'm not going to get into here. I was not on the field, but I'm assuming a player from Team A said something that R felt he could not ignore.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Altor

Yes, it says that's the basic spot. But, it doesn't say anything about not applying ABO. And it doesn't say that you don't replay the down. That information is in the "Football Fundamentals" section.

If the penalty says the basic spot is the succeeding spot for that kind of foul, do not complicate it. ABO does not apply the same way even in the rulebook. You trying to apply something where the rule and casebooks make this kind of clear.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the penalty says the basic spot is the succeeding spot for that kind of foul, do not complicate it. ABO does not apply the same way even in the rulebook. You trying to apply something where the rule and casebooks make this kind of clear.

I wonder if anyone would ever apply the "One" of the All But One for a non-contact foul, considering it occurs in head space rather than field space.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I wonder if anyone would ever apply the "One" of the All But One for a non-contact foul, considering it occurs in head space rather than field space.

Well they shouldn't, considering that USC fouls are all non-contact and/or non-player fouls at the NF level. That is why the rule says they are succeeding spot fouls. So you cannot use ABO in that case.

Peace

[Scooby]

IF it is under 2 minutes in either halve, the offending team has the option to have the clock start on the snap.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Scooby

IF it is under 2 minutes in either halve, the offending team has the option to have the clock start on the snap.

NFHS:3-5-7 indicates, "When a penalty is accepted with less that 2 minutes remaining in either half, the ]OFFENDED team will have the option to start the clock on the snap."