12 men on the field - deadball?

[7Rock]

This happened in our game on friday night.
We are attempting a PAT. Ball is snapped. Ref blows whistle as kicker kicks it through the uprights. Call is defense has 12 men on the field. Ref takes the point away and makes team kick again.
Was that the right call, or should he have given the kicking team the option of letting the play stand?

[KWH]

You either had a dead ball (prior to the snap) substitution infraction - 5 yards previous spot (half the distance)
OR
You had a live ball (after the snap) illegal participation -15 yards previous spot (half the distance and go for 2 if kick was good), or again if the kick was good, take the single point AND penalty enforced (15 yards) on the kickoff!

You should NOT have had a whistle at the snap to shut down the play!!! This would be incorrect!
Is it possibly you merely had a slow whistle for substitution infraction?



[Edited by KWH on Oct 23rd, 2002 at 12:10 PM]

[devdog69]

He was referring to his white hat blowing the whistle as the kick is up and headed towards the uprights not at the snap. This is SOP around here on PAT's.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by 7Rock
This happened in our game on friday night.
We are attempting a PAT. Ball is snapped. Ref blows whistle as kicker kicks it through the uprights. Call is defense has 12 men on the field. Ref takes the point away and makes team kick again.
Was that the right call, or should he have given the kicking team the option of letting the play stand?

NFHS Rules:
If the call was illegal participation (12 men on the field who are participating), the game official messed up the call in two ways.

1. Official should have counted 12 BEFORE the ball was snapped and he should have killed the play and penalized for illegal substition. Maybe this is what he was doing but just had a REALLY late whistle.

2. Official should NOT have forced a re-kick. He should have offered the following three options.
a. Accept penalty and replay the down.
b. Accept penalty and mark it off on the kick-off.
c. Decline the penalty.

[insatty]

Mike:

I'm confused as to how the option of accepting illegal-participation penalty and enforcing on kickoff is possible. Under FED., illegal participation is a foul concurrent with snap and thus enforced from previous, not succeeding, spot. So if penalty is accepted, doesn't A have to replay try from 18-yard line?

[snrmike]

The rule has different stipulations for offense and defense, but it's always a live ball foul.

Since the defense can run players out (or in) at any time before the snap, substitution is rarely called on the D unless a player runs off the field and then back on before the snap.

On offense, the personnel in the offensive huddle often dictates which defensive participants are in or out, so if twelve huddle, illegal substitution (dead-ball foul) is frequently called. If the play starts before the officials notice too many offense participants, the live ball, illegal participation is the call.

Your white hat jumped the gun with the call on the defense in your game.

Here's a quiz: If a player is clearly running off the field and causes no player from the offense to react, what should you call? A substition, or participation foul?

[nvfoa15]

srnmike,

For our association, if the player is past the wingman (we don't always stand on the sideline) then its play on. If he is in front of the official when the ball is snapped -illegal sub.

[STEVED21]

Insatty:

The foul was on R. you are correct if it was on K. On a try, K has the option of taking the points and enforcing the penalty on the kickoff when R fouls on a successful 1 or 2 point try. It's an exception to the all-but-one. It allows all fouls to be penalized on the try.

[bluezebra]

"So if penalty is accepted, doesn't A have to replay try from 18-yard line?"

It was a DEFENSIVE foul. Why would you penalize the OFFENSE?

As for a player running off the field. If he's attempting to get off, he's not participating. We would not flag it if he had passed the flank official on his side.

[snrmike]

I agree with your rule of thumb on the wingman thing. We do that too.

I was just asking how every one did this because I've seen many of our colleagues call it both ways, right or wrong.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by insatty
Mike:

I'm confused as to how the option of accepting illegal-participation penalty and enforcing on kickoff is possible. Under FED., illegal participation is a foul concurrent with snap and thus enforced from previous, not succeeding, spot. So if penalty is accepted, doesn't A have to replay try from 18-yard line?

It was B who had 12 players on the field. If B commits a foul during a successful try, A can choose to have the penalty enforced on the kick-off.

[BulldogMcC]

We do it is if the offense has 12 men in the huddle or in the formation, we kill the play and call deadball illegal substitution. If the defense has 12 men in their formation we make the same dead ball call on the defense. We also ignore any replaced player that is beyond the wing on the side he is exiting. At lower levels we are more likely to tell the teams the problem and give them a quick second to get a player moving to the sideline, but we are consistent with our enforcement at the Varisty level.

Anytime we have to pin an illegal participation on a team because they had 12 in formation and thus playing at the snap we take that a failure of the team to follow their mechanics properly as the team should have been counted before the snap. If any official counts >11 players they throw a flag. If they somehow miscounted, we can wave off the flag for the 5 yard penalty instead of having to enforce a 15 yarder.

McC

[Mike Simonds]

We tell our wing men to step up towards the numbers if a sub is running off. Give them a chance to get off the field or at least behind your field of vision so you won't have to penalize something that does not affect the play or deceive the opponents.

Over here the BJ (5 man) or the FJ & SJ (6 man), counts the defense. Better to get an early whistle for illegal sub, dead ball foul.

If you are close to the snap, better to make it a live ball foul. And you guys are correct, A can take the point and enforce the penalty against B on the kick-off.

[KWH]

Originally posted by devdog69
He was referring to his white hat blowing the whistle as the kick is up and headed towards the uprights not at the snap. This is SOP around here on PAT's.

I agree with and use your SOP on all my PAT's.
Unless I read it wrong my understanding was the White Hat "shut the play down" concurent with the snap due to 12 on defense, enforced the penalty, and replayed the try.
Such action would be incorrect!

[insatty]

Thank you gentlemen, I sure misread this one. Foul on B during successful try enforced on kickoff is the new rule this year if I'm not mistaken. Last year, penalty was automatically declined.