Deadball PF vs Roughing the Passer - help

[NWMichiganRef]

Fed Rules:

Had this situation last friday night and I need some help on this call as I am going back and forth. 3 and 19, QB drops back to throw and in the middle of his throwing motion he is contacted by a defensive player causing his pass to fall incomplete 10 or so yards away. I hear the whistles from the LJ and BJ so I immediately start blowing mine as the defensive player is still locked up the QB driving him backwards. Despite the whistle the defenseive players drives the QB another 5 yards and than throws the QB to the ground. I flag the play immediatley, however, instead of giving myself a second to think about what occured I wheel around and give the signal for deadball personal foul and stated that it is 15 yards from the previous spot resulting in 4th and 4. My mind was telling me that this action was a good 2-3 seconds after the whistle thus it is a deadball foul. However after thinking about it should I have called roughing the passer which carries the automatic first down? After thinking about this over the weekend I have come to the conclusion that I messed this one up and should have called roughing the passer.

On a side note, if I would have called roughing than I would not have had to explain to the coaches that personal fouls for late hits don't give the offensive team an automatic first down. But that is another long story.

[JasonTX]

I'm assuming you are asking under Fed rules, but I will ask a question anyways. What is the definition of a passer and when is he no longer, by rule a passer? To me it seems contact was first made prior to the pass, the pass then fell incomplete, and then you had a foul AFTER the pass became incomplete. Under NCAA this would all be a dead ball foul since by rule that player is no longer a passer once the ball hits the ground. It would makes sense if NF rules were the same, but I don't know them.

[NWMichiganRef]

Fed rules apply in this situation. high school game.

[Theisey]

Jasons answer for NCAA would apply for NF. The passer is no longer a passer at this point as the pass has ended. You say the defender had contacted the QB while he was in his throwing motion. Be hard pressed to call roughing at that point.

Go with a dead-ball personal foul. That's really all you can do. Sure this is not going to be an auto-1st down and of course the team-A coach will be questioning you on it.
It will be even harder to explain if this were a 4th down play and now team-B is going to snap the ball but you would be correct.

[Jim D]

If the defender had stopped when the whistle blew, I assume you would have no foul. If that's true, then you don't have RTP. His continued action after the whistle is what caused the foul so it would be dead ball, PF.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by NWMichiganRef

Fed Rules:

Despite the whistle the defenseive players drives the QB another 5 yards and than throws the QB to the ground.

Dead ball UR foul. Luckily, our UR penalties carry an AFD. So, Team A 1D/10 @ PLS+15.

[MJT]

I disagree. I think it is RTP cuz the contact started when he was a passer and continued with no loss of contact. I know by defn he is not a passer after the pass is over, but I am looking at the fact that the contact which led to the foul occured before the EOPass. I think this follows the intent of the rule for RTP.

Think about it this way. If the QB has just released a ball on a middle screen pass and gets wrapped up, driven back 3-5 yards and then slammed to the ground, aren't you going to call RTP? You are not going to go and ask the wing if the pass was completed before the QB was slammed down and then call it PF. What is the difference?

Now if the 1st contact is after you hear the whistle indicating the ball is dead, you have a DBPF.