The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2020, 08:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 105
Pass attempt breaks the plane

Team A has ball on (or inside) team B's 1 yard line. The passer stands close to (or on) the LOS. He attempts to pass into the end zone. If, while his arm moves forward, the ball "breaks the plane" before leaving the passer's hand, is it a TD? Or do we have a legal or illegal forward pass?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2020, 11:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsaucer View Post
Team A has ball on (or inside) team B's 1 yard line. The passer stands close to (or on) the LOS. He attempts to pass into the end zone. If, while his arm moves forward, the ball "breaks the plane" before leaving the passer's hand, is it a TD? Or do we have a legal or illegal forward pass?
Which rule-set?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 04, 2020, 08:34am
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
NFHS 8-2-ART. 1 . . . Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown.

a. It is a touchdown when a runner advances from the field of play so that the ball penetrates the vertical plane of the opponent's goal line.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 04, 2020, 01:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by GA Umpire 07 View Post
Which rule-set?
No matter. Anyone in any rule set is going to rule the runner in possession until the ball leaves his hand. No indication that he was juggling the ball before it broke the plane, right?
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 04, 2020, 08:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 105
So it's not considered a pass until the ball leaves his hand?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 05, 2020, 09:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsaucer View Post
So it's not considered a pass until the ball leaves his hand?
There are situations in which a forward pass is ruled retroactively to have begun with a forward motion of even part of the arm that has a hand with a ball in it. This is not one of those situations because the ball never became loose, at least according to the initial description. The ball was dead while still in a player's possession.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 05, 2020, 05:36pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
A ball is either in player possession or its not.


2-32-ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight.

The act of passing and a pass are different things.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 07, 2020, 09:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
There are situations in which a forward pass is ruled retroactively to have begun with a forward motion of even part of the arm that has a hand with a ball in it. This is not one of those situations because the ball never became loose, at least according to the initial description. The ball was dead while still in a player's possession.
Assuming the ball left the hand after crossing the plane, would that change things?
__________________
"I don't think I'm very happy. I always fall asleep to the sound of my own screams...and then I always get woken up to the sound of my own screams. Do you think I'm unhappy?"
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 07, 2020, 09:39pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
Once the ball crosses the plane in player possession its a TD and the ball is dead.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 08, 2020, 09:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Assuming the ball left the hand after crossing the plane, would that change things?
Lots of things can happen on the field after the ball becomes dead, but the only ones of concern to officials as officials would be personal and non-contact fouls. Then it's a matter of enforcements for fouls that occur between the scoring of a touchdown and the readying of the ball for a try -- and I fortunately as a non-official don't have to keep up with the latest from the various codes on when the try begins and what the penalty options are!

I might as well amplify on the reason the answer is "no". When a live ball becomes loose, it can be ruled retroactively to have been a forward pass based on motion of the extremity holding the ball before it became loose. That's it -- ruling on a loose ball as to whether it was a forward pass, as opposed to a backward pass or fumble. If the ball wasn't live and loose, the prior motion of the ball while it was still held has no bearing on anything. The intention of the player to make a forward pass has no bearing on anything.

I don't see why this should require so much thought. You wouldn't have a problem if the runner's knee touched the ground before he got a pass away, would you? Or if his foot touched a sideline, right? The ball's touching the vertical plane of the opposing goal line while in a player's possession is a case of the same thing. It could happen because a player looking for a receiver can't always be expected to know where the goal line is. In Federation rules, a player with a long reach might even have a foot in a place from which he could throw a legal forward pass when the ball touches that plane.

Last edited by Robert Goodman; Sat May 09, 2020 at 04:07pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 09, 2020, 09:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,240
Here is a situation where I could see this happening. QB is rolling out and thinks he is going to be hit as he approaches the goal line. He sees a receiver wide open in the back corner of the end zone and attempts a shovel pass to the receiver. As he is diving, but before the ball leaves his hands, the ball breaks the plane of the goal line. In this situation the player will have scored a touchdown, and most likely still would have had a portion of his body on or behind the LOS when the pass was released.

I can see the argument if you make a call for a TD and the receiver were to drop the ball though.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 11, 2020, 03:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsaucer View Post
Team A has ball on (or inside) team B's 1 yard line. The passer stands close to (or on) the LOS. He attempts to pass into the end zone. If, while his arm moves forward, the ball "breaks the plane" before leaving the passer's hand, is it a TD? Or do we have a legal or illegal forward pass?
NFHS 7-5-1 clearly states, "it is a legal forward pass.....a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released..." If that pass is subsequently "caught" (satisfying NFHS:2-4-1 beyond the opponent's goal line, it is a TD.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 11, 2020, 07:08pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
Quote:
If, while his arm moves forward, the ball "breaks the plane" before leaving the passer's hand
Fundamental I 8. Possession of a live ball in the opponent’s end zone is always a touchdown.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 22, 2020, 10:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,193
NCAA: If ANY part of the passer's body is behind the neutral zone, it is a legal forward pass (other things notwithstanding). Sorry I don't have an immediate rule reference. So, there's clearly no foul. Its just a matter of how the wing or covering official rules on the ball in the QB's hand breaking the plane. By the way it is stated, that would be a TD.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2020, 07:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 70
Yes, it's a TD and the wings better sell it, especially if it falls incomplete.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Forward pass, does it need to break plane? chymechowder Football 7 Sat Aug 08, 2009 09:05pm
What to do when a fight breaks out? jdccpa Basketball 21 Sun Jan 01, 2006 02:41am
NFL HL breaks his leg gscsj Football 2 Thu Dec 22, 2005 01:41pm
Them's the Breaks rainmaker Basketball 0 Sat Jan 24, 2004 02:26am
Water Breaks Ed Hickland Football 11 Sun Aug 24, 2003 09:49pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:23am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1