Pylon

[whitehat]

1. If the properly placed pylon is "out of bounds" (1-4) why do we consider a ball in player possession (A runner going towards B' goal line) that touches the pylon a TD?

2. Kick off heading towards EZ, hits one of the front pylons: Touch back or Kick out of bounds?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by whitehat

1. If the properly placed pylon is "out of bounds" (1-4) why do we consider a ball in player possession (A runner going towards B' goal line) that touches the pylon a TD?

2. Kick off heading towards EZ, hits one of the front pylons: Touch back or Kick out of bounds?

Because it's out of bounds behind the goal line. In order to touch the pylon, the ball must have broken the GL plane first.

[whitehat]

That is my thought as well and yet two things.
1. I can't find "behind the goal line" as a part of the definition of the properly placed pylon.
2. The outside edge of the pylon is technically out of bounds if properly placed.

I am not suggesting or arguing that either of these should not be a TD or TB (as appropriate) yet the NFHS language should be more specific in clarifying this.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

1. If the properly placed pylon is "out of bounds" (1-4) why do we consider a ball in player possession (A runner going towards B' goal line) that touches the pylon a TD?

Look at it this way: If you don't call it a TD, where you gonna spot the ball?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

That is my thought as well and yet two things.
1. I can't find "behind the goal line" as a part of the definition of the properly placed pylon.
2. The outside edge of the pylon is technically out of bounds if properly placed.

I am not suggesting or arguing that either of these should not be a TD or TB (as appropriate) yet the NFHS language should be more specific in clarifying this.

I don't see the problem. The entirety of the pylon is behind the goal line and out of bounds. If that's not a problem for the white lines, why's it a problem for the orange post? "[P]laced at the inside corner of each of the intersections of the sidelines with the goal lines and the end lines...." How else could you see it?

When flags were used, that could sometimes be a problem.

[Texas Aggie]

If that's not a problem for the white lines

Good point! A runner is running near midfield and near the sideline. He reaches the ball out and a part of his body other than a hand or foot hits the ground simultaneously with the ball hitting the ground (in his possession) on the sideline that intersects the 45 yard line. Where are you going to spot the ball? Why wouldn't this spot also apply if the sideline the ball hit intersected the goal line.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by whitehat

2. Kick off heading towards EZ, hits one of the front pylons: Touch back or Kick out of bounds?

This is one where I maintain the official ruling is wrong. I say that if it hits the side facing the opposite sideline, then it crossed the GL before going OOB and is a touchback. If it hits the side facing the opposite end line, then it went OOB before crossing the goal line and should be marked at the R1.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Altor

This is one where I maintain the official ruling is wrong. I say that if it hits the side facing the opposite sideline, then it crossed the GL before going OOB and is a touchback. If it hits the side facing the opposite end line, then it went OOB before crossing the goal line and should be marked at the R1.

When the pylon is properly set, so that it's front edge is on the goal line, why would a kick, that touches that front edge, not have broken the plane of the goal line, which satisfies the requirement of being a touchback? "Crossing the line" is not necessary.

[Altor]

Forget about it hitting the pylon for a moment. You are standing at the pylon for a kickoff. From here you clearly see the ball crosses the plane of the sideline before reaching the goal line. It then lands two yards behind the goal line and five yards OOB. Is this a touchback?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Altor

Forget about it hitting the pylon for a moment. You are standing at the pylon for a kickoff. From here you clearly see the ball crosses the plane of the sideline before reaching the goal line. It then lands two yards behind the goal line and five yards OOB. Is this a touchback?

Of course not.

But you're asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is: Can the ball touch the pylon without breaking the GL plane (extended)? The answer is "no".

The reason for having pylons is to give the players and officials an easy vertical reference point for the location of the intersection of the goal line and sideline. Defining the pylon as being OOB behind the GL makes it simple to officiate.

[Altor]

But my entire point is that in order to hit the face of the pylon that is facing the opposite end line, the ball must have cross the sideline first before it hit the pylon.

If the kick that lands 5 yards OOB is not a touchback because it crosses the sideline before it crosses the goal line, why is it a touchback just because it hits the pylon?

[OKREF]

The front face of the pylon is the front edge of the goal line. Any ball that hits the pylon breaks the front edge of the goal line. All the pylon does is give us a tool to judge if the ball crosses the goal line or doesn't.

[Robert Goodman]

Maybe Altor's example needs to be even more starkly stated:

(a) A1's punt from close to the sideline crosses the sideline immediately, but an in-field wind keeps the ball close as it travels in the air, and the 1st thing it hits is the front face of the goal line pylon 40 yards downfield. What's your spot? I'd say where it crossed the sideline.

Now say the pylon is missing -- happens a lot with the weighted ones we use that blow over or away easily -- and the ball takes the same path as in a, but hits the ground

(b) a foot outside the sideline in goal, or
(c) a foot inside the sideline in the end zone.

I'd say in b that the spot would be the same as in a, but c would result in a touchback. In c the status of the ball was never "out of bounds".

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Maybe Altor's example needs to be even more starkly stated:

(a) A1's punt from close to the sideline crosses the sideline immediately, but an in-field wind keeps the ball close as it travels in the air, and the 1st thing it hits is the front face of the goal line pylon 40 yards downfield. What's your spot? I'd say where it crossed the sideline.

Now say the pylon is missing -- happens a lot with the weighted ones we use that blow over or away easily -- and the ball takes the same path as in a, but hits the ground

(b) a foot outside the sideline in goal, or
(c) a foot inside the sideline in the end zone.

I'd say in b that the spot would be the same as in a, but c would result in a touchback. In c the status of the ball was never "out of bounds".

Its not OOB until it hits something OOB. When do you stop the clock on a pass that is thrown OOB? When it crosses the line or when it hits something OOB?

I would say all 3 would be touchbacks

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Its not OOB until it hits something OOB. When do you stop the clock on a pass that is thrown OOB? When it crosses the line or when it hits something OOB?

I would say all 3 would be touchbacks

You might want to reread the rule on punts out of bounds in particular.