Does this site ever discuss football?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Rich

And yet the state of Texas seems to do just fine.

Not to mention that kids as young as 6 (or maybe even 5) play under NCAA rules in Texas and do just fine.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Not to mention that kids as young as 6 (or maybe even 5) play under NCAA rules in Texas and do just fine.

I do not think anyone is suggesting they could not do alright, but your state has to be committed to that from top to bottom. The NF only requires states to follow their rules. I do not see youth football across the country using NCAA games in many states as well. You do not see that in other sports and there is a reason for that.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think it is that petty.

I didn't say it was petty, just differences of opinion.

I think football at the high school level has different concerns and NCAA often does not address them

Indeed, and that's the reason Fed has usually given for their differences, and usually they're right.

or the main thing, you have college coaches that try to always find holes they can exploit. Those same exploitation do not take place in NF because there are more coaches and many coaches are not only coaches by profession.

Think about this: Where is a loophole more likely to be found & exploited: among full-time pros, or among a far greater number who include some part-timers & volunteers? Fed has so many more games played by their rules (not even limited to their member ass'ns), the exploitation's usually going to come first there, rather than in the smaller world of NCAA rules users.

I do not think the NF goes out of their way, they just do not see the need to change something that is simple that is mostly taking place at the college level.

Then how do you explain their adopting a provision which, although it was intended to have the same effect as a recently-adopted NCAA one regarding approach by the kicking team to their free kick line, was worded differently in a way that made it hard to administer if officials were actually to take it literally (which I'm sure they didn't)? Why didn't they just adopt NCAA's language? They used to cooperate via a liaison committee with NCAA, ideas going back & forth, sometimes adopting the same change at the same time if they both found it appropriate.

I'll give you an example of a difference that existed for about 60 yrs. as a result of Fed's change: # of forward passes allowed per down. When the Football Rules Committee (pre-dating NCAA) legalized the forward pass in 1906, they limited forward passes to one per down. All the major codes kept it that way, except Fed. Shortly after Fed started writing their own rules for football, they took several years to deliberate things; you can see their sec'y's notes on this in their archives from that time. Taking nothing for granted, they looked over the whole code, not only for what different needs pre-collegians might have, but what could be improved generally. They said, why should forward passes be limited to once/down? So they abolished that requirement, reinstating it only recently. I don't know why they reinstated it. I also don't know why the other codes kept it. I think it makes the game marginally better to allow more than one forward pass per down, and it also makes administration easier when you don't have to see whether a swing pass preceding a forward pass went forward.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then how do you explain their adopting a provision which, although it was intended to have the same effect as a recently-adopted NCAA one regarding approach by the kicking team to their free kick line, was worded differently in a way that made it hard to administer if officials were actually to take it literally (which I'm sure they didn't)? Why didn't they just adopt NCAA's language? They used to cooperate via a liaison committee with NCAA, ideas going back & forth, sometimes adopting the same change at the same time if they both found it appropriate.

Coaches or individuals that would be involved in FED Rules would not likely do it for a living as a college coach would. That was the point, not how many play under those rules. And because there is so much more money on the line in a college game, there are coaches always looking for an advantage or figure out a way to do something that might need to be addressed by the rules committee. Not so much the case as something that happens in Nevada for example, might not every take place in Ohio. Even the A-11 Offense that was developed was a rare situation. But Bill Belichick or Oregon has nothing better to do than to find a rule to exploit. They have more training time and more practice time with their players and systems. A HS football coach might not ever have a player in the off-season just based on other sports and other activities.

Also I think the FED and rightfully so does not want to have to deal with the logic of the NCAA or any other level for that matter. Just like the NCAA is not going to use NFL rules for their stuff either. Different consequences to a rules change and a different staff as officials to train for those rules as well. Making the rules the same only benefits really a very small percentage of people.

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think anyone is suggesting they could not do alright

That's exactly what Al is saying and has said before. It's simply not true.

Look I've been very clear that I'm not advocating this for other states but it works just fine in Texas and I presume also Massachusetts. Most of the concerns I've seen raised simply are unfounded.

You do not see that in other sports and there is a reason for that.

Sure you do. Youth baseball. Most leagues use an OBR based rule set.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Look I've been very clear that I'm not advocating this for other states but it works just fine in Texas and I presume also Massachusetts. Most of the concerns I've seen raised simply are unfounded.

You are advocating for something that does not even translate to other states. For one, not all states take football the way they do in Texas. We do not have spring football. You cannot play other schools during the off-season in any way. Heck they just got rid of contact for the most part during the summer, which was not traditionally allowed anyway during the summers. So I get why you would think what Texas does should apply to others, but I am just saying it is not taking that seriously in other places.

Originally Posted by Welpe

Sure you do. Youth baseball. Most leagues use an OBR based rule set.

Not true here or has not always been the case. Many leagues used FED rules for their travel leagues as an example or they would use a hybrid of the FED rule with some other modified rules. And in other sports like Basketball, Soccer or even Volleyball do not use NCAA rules or pro rules to govern their sports across the board. Softball when I was doing it at the youth level never used NCAA rules. I am also not saying that levels did not use variations of rules, I am saying that NCAA rules were not used because it was not appropriate to the younger levels. It is great that Texas wants to be different (what else is new ) but that does not mean the other states are trying to follow, that is really all I am saying. And if football is the main sport this even applies, what makes you think the NF is just going to give up rules for one sport? Not going to happen.

Peace

[Welpe]

Thank you for proving you don't actually read my posts Jeff.

I said I'm not advocating and have been very clear about that. I'm not saying it will happen or that it should. Actually take the time to read my posts instead of looking for points to argue.

And Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are all based on OBR. So yes most youth baseball is played under OBR. I'm simply refuting your point that no other sport plays different rules between youth and high school. It's simply not true.

These are professional based rules that are more complex than NFHS rules. So again, there are other sports that do it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Thank you for proving you don't actually read my posts Jeff.

I said I'm not advocating and have been very clear about that. I'm not saying it will happen or that it should. Actually take the time to read my posts instead of looking for points to argue.

And Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are all based on OBR. So yes most youth baseball is played under OBR. I'm simply refuting your point that no other sport plays different rules between youth and high school. It's simply not true.

These are professional based rules that are more complex than NFHS rules. So again, there are other sports that do it.

I read your post, but I do not agree with them always.

Again you assume that Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are the only youth baseball played here. Kids are not playing baseball that much anymore (at least not here) and many youth leagues are not associated with those organizations for all kinds of reasons. Little League might be the most popular you listed on this list at least here. After that, there are a lot school based leagues that involve FED Rules being played under. And I am sure that applies on some level to other areas of the country. Again just this little issue is why it will not happen. I did not have to read your post or read every word slowly in your post to understand that basic fact. And I am not actually arguing with you, I am sharing a perspective on the topic. Not every response is an argument. We are not going to solve this issue on this site anytime soon. I doubt the NF reads this and says, "You know, Jeff Rutledge said this on that website, so let us listen to what he thinks and throw out all of our general and basic principles we have been applying for years." Pop Warner and Bill George (Youth Football) here are about the biggest youth football organizations outside of actual school ball uses FED Rules for all there levels considering they are across the country. Heck everyone wants to be different I would suspect and that is part of the issue. They do not care what officials think IMO.

Considering that the FED is bigger than just one sport, they tend to share their philosophies across multiple sports and sports we never have discussed here. And this all started as to why we do or do not discuss football on this site, which honestly has little to do with what rules set is used overall. There are many more venues for discussion of football and this site has been left in the dust for some time. Basketball for example has the largest following but most of the participants seem to follow other sites as well. Stop being so sensitive, just having a discussion man. That is what we are supposed to be doing here right?

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I read your post, but I do not agree with them always.

Then stop attributing to me things I'm not saying and actually saying the opposite of.

Again you assume that Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are the only youth baseball played here.

I'm not talking about Naperville, IL, I'm talking about the entire country. Those are the largest youth baseball organizations from coast to coast. Regardless it was simply an example to refute something you were claiming that wasn't true.

And I am not actually arguing with you, I am sharing a perspective on the topic.

As am I and from somebody that has a pretty unique experience in this topic. My only point was that a lot of the things claimed about lower levels playing under NCAA rules are not true. I've experienced it firsthand. That's it.

And since I have to seemingly say it over and over again, I'm not advocating and I'm not saying it even makes sense for other states to change. It just wouldn't be the end of the known world if they did.

Not every response is an argument.

Sure. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Stop being so sensitive, just having a discussion man. That is what we are supposed to be doing here right?

Peace

I'm fine. Not heated or being sensitive at all. It's not too much to ask that my posts actually be understood though. Of course it's a discussion otherwise I wouldn't be engaging in it. And then whose posts would you only partially read?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'm not talking about Naperville, IL, I'm talking about the entire country. Those are the largest youth baseball organizations from coast to coast. Regardless it was simply an example to refute something you were claiming that wasn't true.

I rarely if ever work a game in Naperville, Illinois. Nothing I was talking about has anything to do with the town I live in. And I do not do baseball anymore and I never did a couple of the organizations games as you listed. I can only speak for what I know and what I did. I also did high school baseball in Iowa and those leagues you mentioned were not as big of an influence in youth baseball because those kids played high school during the summer.

Originally Posted by Welpe

As am I and from somebody that has a pretty unique experience in this topic. My only point was that a lot of the things claimed about lower levels playing under NCAA rules are not true. I've experienced it firsthand. That's it.

And since I have to seemingly say it over and over again, I'm not advocating and I'm not saying it even makes sense for other states to change. It just wouldn't be the end of the known world if they did.

I was just giving a perspective. Take it or leave it. Again, the NF is not doing something either way based on what we talk about here.

Originally Posted by Welpe

Sure. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

There are a lot of things that help me sleep at night and it does not involve talking to a dude on an internet site. But thanks for the concern.

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'm fine. Not heated or being sensitive at all. It's not too much to ask that my posts actually be understood though. Of course it's a discussion otherwise I wouldn't be engaging in it. And then whose posts would you only partially read?

For something to be understood it falls on you first. I was just commenting on the topic and not trying to make it conversation. But I have seen this movie before where people from Texas claim that everything they do is so great and everyone else should follow because it is not a problem there. Again, just giving a perspective of why that might not work for everyone. I also played football in Texas for a brief time and had another family member play there and get a D1 scholarship. I am very aware of how different Texas approaches youth football and other sports to where I have lived and officiated. Unless it has drastically changed, those issues would not go away.

Peace

[scrounge]

I don't think it's a great analogy to say that many youth baseball leagues use OBR so why not use NCAA for sub-college HS. In my opinion, there is far more commonality in the main playing rules from OBR to FED in baseball than NCAA to FED in football. For the vast majority of plays, there is no substantial difference in baseball. The main differences that come up are the balk rules and obstruction, but it's pretty rare for a balk call in OBR to actually get pitched and hit, and obstruction/interference differences simply don't come up all that often. If I see more than 5 a year, it's a lot.

In football, it's a totally different story. From blocking below the waist to all the exceptions to clock management, etc., the differences are pervasive and commonplace. I think it's unreasonable to expect the vast army of officials across the country - of all different experience levels and abilities - to master the NCAA code. I understand it works in TX, with a - shall we say - unique and more intense culture. And MA is a relatively small state that may find it easier to ensure uniformity and knowledge. I don't think it would work across the board.

As an aside, here in central Ohio, it's virtually unheard of to have any baseball at any level that isn't Fed. The only league I know that uses OBR is the adult league, and even they use the Fed FSPR.

[ajmc]

Two, tried and true old sayings come to mind; 1. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and 2. "When in Rome, act like a Roman".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I rarely if ever work a game in Naperville, Illinois. Nothing I was talking about has anything to do with the town I live in. And I do not do baseball anymore and I never did a couple of the organizations games as you listed. I can only speak for what I know and what I did. I also did high school baseball in Iowa and those leagues you mentioned were not as big of an influence in youth baseball because those kids played high school during the summer.



I was just giving a perspective. Take it or leave it. Again, the NF is not doing something either way based on what we talk about here.



There are a lot of things that help me sleep at night and it does not involve talking to a dude on an internet site. But thanks for the concern.




For something to be understood it falls on you first. I was just commenting on the topic and not trying to make it conversation. But I have seen this movie before where people from Texas claim that everything they do is so great and everyone else should follow because it is not a problem there. Again, just giving a perspective of why that might not work for everyone. I also played football in Texas for a brief time and had another family member play there and get a D1 scholarship. I am very aware of how different Texas approaches youth football and other sports to where I have lived and officiated. Unless it has drastically changed, those issues would not go away.

Peace

I have lived and umpired in 6 states. An overwhelming majority of youth baseball is played under some OBR-based rules set. This is not the argument to make here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I have lived and umpired in 6 states. An overwhelming majority of youth baseball is played under some OBR-based rules set. This is not the argument to make here.

I did not bring up OBR, so honestly what baseball does in relationship to this conversation is silly if you ask me. Not sure what argument you are talking about. OBR does not have the vast differences that NFL does to even college ball in rules.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by scrounge

I don't think it's a great analogy to say that many youth baseball leagues use OBR so why not use NCAA for sub-college HS. In my opinion, there is far more commonality in the main playing rules from OBR to FED in baseball than NCAA to FED in football. For the vast majority of plays, there is no substantial difference in baseball. The main differences that come up are the balk rules and obstruction, but it's pretty rare for a balk call in OBR to actually get pitched and hit, and obstruction/interference differences simply don't come up all that often. If I see more than 5 a year, it's a lot.

In football, it's a totally different story. From blocking below the waist to all the exceptions to clock management, etc., the differences are pervasive and commonplace. I think it's unreasonable to expect the vast army of officials across the country - of all different experience levels and abilities - to master the NCAA code. I understand it works in TX, with a - shall we say - unique and more intense culture. And MA is a relatively small state that may find it easier to ensure uniformity and knowledge. I don't think it would work across the board.

As an aside, here in central Ohio, it's virtually unheard of to have any baseball at any level that isn't Fed. The only league I know that uses OBR is the adult league, and even they use the Fed FSPR.

Exactly.

Peace