Does this site ever discuss football?

[Texas Aggie]

So 48 states should move in the direction of 2?

Yes. Not because of 2 vs. 48 but because, as I stated, it is a better code for football. We've had many members in our organization over the years that have come from Fed states. I don't know of a single person that wants to ever go back to Fed. If they had to move, many would probably just work small college and not HS. I have 2 ex-Fed guys on my crew right now and I'd give you 100 bucks for ANY nice thing they said about Fed as long as you'd give me 5 bucks for everything they liked about NCAA over Fed. I could probably go a dollar and still come out way ahead.

The great thing about states adopting the NCAA rule set is they can make whatever changes to them that's good for their state and no one cares. Does Fed still get their panties in a wad about states going off the reservation? I know they did in baseball some time ago in Texas -- and I know most states I've heard of respect the Fed rule allowed exceptions. Texas has 40+ exceptions (mostly administrative). The cool thing is that on Saturday, we go work a small college game and virtually everything we call on the field is the same. I can call a fifth year HS guy in an emergency, loan him a shirt (if necessary), and he can be on the field in a college game (actually how I worked my first college game). Have any of you Fed guys done that with someone who didn't have actual college experience and/or didn't know NCAA rules?

enjoy the simplicity of NFHS

I can't speak to what these unknown concerns are, but I have to say the NCAA rule set is better since Redding took over as Editor. He's cleaned a lot of things up.

Though I didn't understand why Texas football had to be so special as to not follow the rules that every other high school sport in the state did

One thing really doesn't have much to do with the other. The reason basketball, for example, plays Fed rules is that teams travel to other states often for tournaments. They need a consistent code among states if that occurs, which doesn't happen a lot in football -- at least not in Texas. I think for the most part, since the rules (Fed) exist, they just use them without a lot of thought.

[JRutledge]

Again, the change to NCAA rules would be a huge adjustment for all officials, not just the experienced ones. There are so many exceptions involved and it has little or nothing to do with what Redding might put in a book. Not everyone reads that book in the first place.

This IMO is why this change will never happen. Also there are NCAA rules that are not appropriate for most high school kids, like blocking below the waist rules that NCAA has. The FBZ is a lot easier to navigate than what the NCAA has and the NCAA is often very confusing. IMO you really need 7 officials for that kind of application and 5 would be hard to apply the rule properly IMO as well.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

As far as basketball is concerned, 50 states may play under NFHS rules but quite a few states use some form of a shot clock as I recall. That's a huge inconsistency. It doesn't stop teams from crossing state lines to play. There are just as many football teams that cross state lines to play games as there are basketball teams in the states I've officiated in. Sure, if a basketball team travels for a tournament, they may play more than one game but schools that are close to state lines routinely play each other in many sports. They're natural rivalries in areas.

I don't buy the argument concerning officials only having to learn one rule set. In our association of 140 officials, less than 10% officiate college football. Why change the rules for less than 10% of the membership? Fewer HS student-athletes play college football, so the argument to change the rules for the benefit of the players doesn't hold water either. State associations are concerned with how the rules affect student-athletes, not officials. That's exactly the stance they should be taking.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

The great thing about states adopting the NCAA rule set is they can make whatever changes to them that's good for their state and no one cares. Does Fed still get their panties in a wad about states going off the reservation? I know they did in baseball some time ago in Texas -- and I know most states I've heard of respect the Fed rule allowed exceptions.

The deal is simple: Only the organiz'ns that have formal input to the rules have to play by the rules. Anybody can play by anyone's rules set; they publish them, after all. For that matter, they can play by a previous edition; many adult leagues do that for football. And they can mix, match, and alter to please.

But you no play-a da game, you no make-a da rules. Seems perfectly reasonable for a governing body to say, we who are concocting the rules -- indirectly, all the member ass'ns together -- agree to play by whatever we come up with. That's how they get feedback. So sure, a state ass'n can use Fed rules with their own modif'ns, but then they have no say in the repair & maintenance of Fed rules in subsequent editions.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The deal is simple: Only the organiz'ns that have formal input to the rules have to play by the rules. Anybody can play by anyone's rules set; they publish them, after all. For that matter, they can play by a previous edition; many adult leagues do that for football. And they can mix, match, and alter to please.

I'm really confused why there seems to be such concern about "different" rule codes. American Football is a great game played by people between the ages of 8 and 60+, that involves complex strategy, continual aggressive physical contact and competition.

The fact that there are rule accommodations to satisfy the differences between children (NFHS), young men (NCAA) and elite professional grown men (NFL) including significantly different instructional, performance and marketing objectives seems only logical.

Does it make sense to expect an interscholastic athlete to be able to immediately grasp the complexities and physical requirements of an experienced collegiate athlete, or a seasoned elite level professional, or expect those at higher performance levels to be burdened by restrictions and protocols designed to protect beginners?

Football is a progressive sport through which participants advance through the levels by means of accomplisment and ability demonstrated at pervious levels

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I'm really confused why there seems to be such concern about "different" rule codes. American Football is a great game played by people between the ages of 8 and 60+, that involves complex strategy, continual aggressive physical contact and competition.

The fact that there are rule accommodations to satisfy the differences between children (NFHS), young men (NCAA) and elite professional grown men (NFL) including significantly different instructional, performance and marketing objectives seems only logical.

Does it make sense to expect an interscholastic athlete to be able to immediately grasp the complexities and physical requirements of an experienced collegiate athlete, or a seasoned elite level professional, or expect those at higher performance levels to be burdened by restrictions and protocols designed to protect beginners?

Football is a progressive sport through which participants advance through the levels by means of accomplisment and ability demonstrated at pervious levels

And yet the state of Texas seems to do just fine.

While I don't think 2 should trump 48 or 49, those states show that NCAA rules work at the prep level, as well. There's just no compelling reason to play them.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich

While I don't think 2 should trump 48 or 49, those states show that NCAA rules work at the prep level, as well. There's just no compelling reason to play them.

Sure they work. The high schools and the pros started out playing by the same rules the college teams used. But then they had reasons for developing their own.

What's bizarre is when in recent time Fed football has gone out of its way to sound different from NCAA when there was no real reason to, other than to look original. The team K rule, I mean.

Sometimes the reason has just been, "You're sticks in the mud, ours are better." That must be how Fed, NAIA, and NJCAA wound up playing by those "Alliance" football rules that Fed instigated. It's not like the NAIA players were any less mature than NCAA's. Similarly in the interval when there were 3 regional rule sets used by the colleges, and then another interval when there were 2. (And that was just in the USA, let alone Canada.) Or when different pro leagues use different rules. Or different youth leagues. Usually it's a matter of some people wanting to change something, others wanting to keep it the same, and they split.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Sure they work. The high schools and the pros started out playing by the same rules the college teams used. But then they had reasons for developing their own.

What's bizarre is when in recent time Fed football has gone out of its way to sound different from NCAA when there was no real reason to, other than to look original. The team K rule, I mean.

Sometimes the reason has just been, "You're sticks in the mud, ours are better." That must be how Fed, NAIA, and NJCAA wound up playing by those "Alliance" football rules that Fed instigated. It's not like the NAIA players were any less mature than NCAA's. Similarly in the interval when there were 3 regional rule sets used by the colleges, and then another interval when there were 2. (And that was just in the USA, let alone Canada.) Or when different pro leagues use different rules. Or different youth leagues. Usually it's a matter of some people wanting to change something, others wanting to keep it the same, and they split.

I do not think it is that petty. I think football at the high school level has different concerns and NCAA often does not address them or the main thing, you have college coaches that try to always find holes they can exploit. Those same exploitation do not take place in NF because there are more coaches and many coaches are not only coaches by profession. I do not think the NF goes out of their way, they just do not see the need to change something that is simple that is mostly taking place at the college level. Again, the players and skill level is very different from high school to college. Heck some even feel that what goes on at the D3 level for example should not be influenced by what happens at the D1 level. So many layers to what is going on, you are not going to get total agreement on what should be changed or how the rules should be the same.

Peace

[ajmc]

Absolutely agree, it's not a question of "better" it's a matter of different objectives, designed to deal with different skill sets. NFHS Rules don't just apply to Varsity level, there's JV, Freshman, Modified and a whole gaggle of Youth Football that follow NFHS rules, with countless adjustments designed specifically for the individual leagues and groups.

"One size fits all", may be one of the dumbest objectives mankind has even considered, it NEVER, EVER works as well as expected about ANYTHING.

Consistency is usually a very good thing, except when it's taken down to the gnat's eyelash level for no practical, or common sense reason. Football is a great game that has always relied on common sense judgment by players, coaches and officials whose focus should be on the situation unfolding in front of them.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think it is that petty.

I didn't say it was petty, just differences of opinion.

I think football at the high school level has different concerns and NCAA often does not address them

Indeed, and that's the reason Fed has usually given for their differences, and usually they're right.

or the main thing, you have college coaches that try to always find holes they can exploit. Those same exploitation do not take place in NF because there are more coaches and many coaches are not only coaches by profession.

Think about this: Where is a loophole more likely to be found & exploited: among full-time pros, or among a far greater number who include some part-timers & volunteers? Fed has so many more games played by their rules (not even limited to their member ass'ns), the exploitation's usually going to come first there, rather than in the smaller world of NCAA rules users.

I do not think the NF goes out of their way, they just do not see the need to change something that is simple that is mostly taking place at the college level.

Then how do you explain their adopting a provision which, although it was intended to have the same effect as a recently-adopted NCAA one regarding approach by the kicking team to their free kick line, was worded differently in a way that made it hard to administer if officials were actually to take it literally (which I'm sure they didn't)? Why didn't they just adopt NCAA's language? They used to cooperate via a liaison committee with NCAA, ideas going back & forth, sometimes adopting the same change at the same time if they both found it appropriate.

I'll give you an example of a difference that existed for about 60 yrs. as a result of Fed's change: # of forward passes allowed per down. When the Football Rules Committee (pre-dating NCAA) legalized the forward pass in 1906, they limited forward passes to one per down. All the major codes kept it that way, except Fed. Shortly after Fed started writing their own rules for football, they took several years to deliberate things; you can see their sec'y's notes on this in their archives from that time. Taking nothing for granted, they looked over the whole code, not only for what different needs pre-collegians might have, but what could be improved generally. They said, why should forward passes be limited to once/down? So they abolished that requirement, reinstating it only recently. I don't know why they reinstated it. I also don't know why the other codes kept it. I think it makes the game marginally better to allow more than one forward pass per down, and it also makes administration easier when you don't have to see whether a swing pass preceding a forward pass went forward.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What's bizarre is when in recent time Fed football has gone out of its way to sound different from NCAA when there was no real reason to, other than to look original. The team K rule, I mean.

Sometimes the reason has just been, "You're sticks in the mud, ours are better." That must be how Fed, NAIA, and NJCAA wound up playing by those "Alliance" football rules that Fed instigated. It's not like the NAIA players were any less mature than NCAA's. Similarly in the interval when there were 3 regional rule sets used by the colleges, and then another interval when there were 2. (And that was just in the USA, let alone Canada.) Or when different pro leagues use different rules. Or different youth leagues. Usually it's a matter of some people wanting to change something, others wanting to keep it the same, and they split.

Please understand folks, this is one person's opinion.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Rich

And yet the state of Texas seems to do just fine.

Not to mention that kids as young as 6 (or maybe even 5) play under NCAA rules in Texas and do just fine.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Not to mention that kids as young as 6 (or maybe even 5) play under NCAA rules in Texas and do just fine.

I do not think anyone is suggesting they could not do alright, but your state has to be committed to that from top to bottom. The NF only requires states to follow their rules. I do not see youth football across the country using NCAA games in many states as well. You do not see that in other sports and there is a reason for that.

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think anyone is suggesting they could not do alright

That's exactly what Al is saying and has said before. It's simply not true.

Look I've been very clear that I'm not advocating this for other states but it works just fine in Texas and I presume also Massachusetts. Most of the concerns I've seen raised simply are unfounded.

You do not see that in other sports and there is a reason for that.

Sure you do. Youth baseball. Most leagues use an OBR based rule set.