Shooting Foul? (Video)

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

Rule 4-11-2 I think is the clearer reference to these plays:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by APG

Rule 4-11-2 I think is the clearer reference to these plays:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball.

I get 4-11. However, she wasn't fouled after the start of her motion, she was fouled prior to any start of a motion. If she hasn't started her motion before the foul, I'm not awarding foul shots.

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I get 4-11. However, she wasn't fouled after the start of her motion, she was fouled prior to any start of a motion. If she hasn't started her motion before the foul, I'm not awarding foul shots.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If the calling official just waits a beat after blowing his whistle he might have gotten it right. It would have given him time to process:

*She stopped dribbling...
*10 feet from the basket...
*With no teammates in sight, therefore...
*What the heck else was she going to do other than shoot?

JMF said it best...every single context clue tells us as soon as she ended her dribble and was stepping to the basket, she had indeed started her motion to shoot....what the hell else is she doing? IMO, (and as AremRed stated), we (the collective we) do a poor job of putting players on the line.

When in doubt, or if it's close, I'll put the player on the line...the team whose player committed the illegal act does not get the benefit of the doubt.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

JMF said it best...every single context clue tells us as soon as she ended her dribble and was stepping to the basket, she had indeed started her motion to shoot....what the hell else is she doing? IMO, (and as AremRed stated), we (the collective we) do a poor job of putting players on the line.

When in doubt, or if it's close, I'll put the player on the line...the team whose player committed the illegal act does not get the benefit of the doubt.

I agree with that (assuming there was actually contact worthy of a foul).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't see anything worth calling on 15 either. But, even it there was a foul that could considered a shooting foul, the basket can't count.

She traveled....and it wasn't really that close. She picked up the ball as she with her left foot on the floor (well before the right came back down), she stepped on the right, then stepped again to the left, then, after a clear delay, released the ball. The catch at the beginning and the release at the end were well separated from the foot necessary foot movements so it isn't even splitting a hair to determine that she traveled.

It is no different than a player who jumps to shoot, is fouled, then lands before releasing and making the shot. No shot, going to the line for 2.

At full speed, I can't quite tell whether she gathers before or after her left foot comes off the floor. Benefit of the doubt to the shooter, I probably wouldn't call that travel in real time because I'm not likely to see it that close.

At full speed, I can't quite tell whether she had gathered the ball when #15 swiped at her arm. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter there, too, and shots would be given (assuming I called the foul).

I recognize this is a case where the two benefits of the doubt are mutually exclusive, but I highly doubt I'd process it that fast in real time.

[BigCat]

i watched the the video one time only. I agree with those who wondered what the hell 15 did to have a foul called. I agree with Camron that she traveled. i thought she put two hands on ball and then might have been touched by 15 at that moment. i did not see her arms moving up at that time. I'm not giving her two shots. i need to see some movement up before i give her two. that is giving her benefit of doubt because we know she could still shoot or pass. i will give her two if i see her on way up. before then i wont.

obviously, you have to gather the ball before you can shoot it but i dont see contact immediatelyh after the gather, down low, before arm moves up, as "habitual throwing motion etc."

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Correct. The NFHS and NBA both consider the gather to be the beginning of the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" whereas NCAA-M specifically requires upward motion to be considered shooting.

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx

It doesn't, shooting motion is totally the judgment of the official, it is not defined:

4-41 ART. 3

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The word "gathering" should not ever be used. Quoting both the NFHS and NCAA rules: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

"(T)he motion which habitually precedes the releas of the ball" in our video is when the dribbler ends her dribble. It is my opinion, after watching the video, that #15 actions do not rise to the level of a foul, but was the dribbler was fouled by the next defensive player after #15. I agree with Camron that the dribbler was fouled in the act of shooting but her allowable foot movements ended before she released the ball in a FG.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

Same place it says this:

Originally Posted by BigCat

i need to see some movement up before i give her two.

The habitual motion doesn't have to be upward motion. Many times, on a layup, it's a dip. It's whatever habitual movement precedes the shot.

Originally Posted by Adam

It's whatever habitual movement precedes the shot.

Like, for example, the "gather" which ends the dribble and typically precedes a shot?

[OKREF]

I watched the video again, I'm changing my mind. I'm giving 2 shots. She is starting the shot as she gets fouled. However, I'm still sticking by a gather doesn't mean shooting motion.

[Nevadaref]

We had a long thread on this several years ago immediately after the NCAA stated that officials were not awarding FTs for fouls committed during the act of shooting properly and that after a player had gathered the ball fouls should be deemed in the act of shooting. NCAAM subsequently changed again a year or so later to the upward movement standard.
The NFHS has never had such a directive. I stated in the thread way back then that some sort of motion with the arms that indicated the start of an attempt to try for goal was necessary at the NFHS level. Simply ending the dribble is not enough as a player could also be passing or just coming to a stop. There has to be some movement after that point make the official believe that a try has begun.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We had a long thread on this several years ago immediately after the NCAA stated that officials were not awarding FTs for fouls committed during the act of shooting properly and that after a player had gathered the ball fouls should be deemed in the act of shooting. NCAAM subsequently changed again a year or so later to the upward movement standard.
The NFHS has never had such a directive. I stated in the thread way back then that some sort of motion with the arms that indicated the start of an attempt to try for goal was necessary at the NFHS level. Simply ending the dribble is not enough as a player could also be passing or just coming to a stop. There has to be some movement after that point make the official believe that a try has begun.

Well that is not what the rules says. It says the habitual throwing movement starts a try. So how do you determine that other than the moment you gather the ball? Your arms are not necessarily going to go up to make a shot. True you could pass, but if they are not shooting, they can do something that looks like a pass. But even the casebook has a play that says if you are prevented from releasing on a shot, we are still to consider it a pass. But like many things these are philosophies as much as anything. I just do not agree that we cannot determine if they are shooting if they are fouled right after the gather.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well that is not what the rules says. It says the habitual throwing movement starts a try. So how do you determine that other than the moment you gather the ball?

As posted earlier, this is what the rule says, "These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started..."

I concur that the key is how one defines "usual throwing motion" or "habitual motion." I disagree that it is just gathering the ball. It is definitely something more.