Disallow the Goal?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

ART. 1 . . . Touches the ball or any part of the basket (including the net) while the ball is on or within either basket.

I was going by this quote from JetMetFan...

9.11.1 SITUATION D:

The ball is on the ring of Team A's basket when A1 hits the net.

RULING: Basket interference by A1. No goal. The ball became dead when A1 touched the net as it is part of the basket. (4-6; 6-7-9)

But to further play devil's advocate, at what point is the ball no longer within the basket? A ball doesn't have to pass through the net in order to be counted, it just has to go through the ring. So if it's past the ring, then it would seem the ball is no longer within the basket. Therefore... again, in the OP, you'd count the basket.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I was going by this quote from JetMetFan...



But to further play devil's advocate, at what point is the ball no longer within the basket? A ball doesn't have to pass through the net in order to be counted, it just has to go through the ring. So if it's past the ring, then it would seem the ball is no longer within the basket. Therefore... again, in the OP, you'd count the basket.

Wow, I hope that you only officiate games which don't have a chance of having any BI or GT calls because you are woefully unaware of the rules for these situations.

Now go read the definitions of the basket and a made goal.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wow, I hope that you only officiate games which don't have a chance of having any BI or GT calls because you are woefully unaware of the rules for these situations.

Now go read the definitions of the basket and a made goal.

While I could look up all this stuff before posting, I like to test my knowledge or lack thereof. Therefore, sometimes, I don't go "open book" when talking around here. I went by things written by others and responded.

I'm getting ready for work, so I don't have time to go nuts in the book, but I didn't come across a clear definition of a made basket. Rule 5 states that a goal is made when a live ball enters a basket from above and remains in or passes through. The definition for basket interference was given above, and just states the "on or within" thing. There doesn't seem to be a definition of "basket" or "made goal".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

There doesn't seem to be a definition of "basket" or "made goal".

(I've got today off from work.)

1-10-1: Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring ... its flange and braces, and a ... net ... suspended from beneath the ring.

5-1-1: A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.

[BryanV21]

But it is a goal if the ball remains in the net, not just passes through. So thanks for that, but it still doesn't answer the question of when a made basket counts, and how that relates to the op.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

But it is a goal if the ball remains in the net, not just passes through. So thanks for that, but it still doesn't answer the question of when a made basket counts, and how that relates to the op.

"Remains in" is referring to a situation when the net has become stuck (legally) and the ball can't pass through. So, that element is not relevant to this discussion. BI, technically, is possible until the ball comes out of the bottom of the net.

[BryanV21]

OK, the various rules are confusing, and it doesn't help that I'm on my phone right now. The consensus here is that BI is right. Correct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jumpshooter40

As the ball is traveling downward thru the net, and is probably 2/3 of the way thru the travel, player A2 contacts the net. The ball finishes traveling thru the net and exits downward, falling on the ground.

Technically, on the written test, it's an offensive basket interference violation. No goal. Easy call on a written test.

In my real game, in real time, if I'm the trail official, and if the ball is totally in the net, totally controlled by gravity alone, and the net is just barely touched by the offensive player, it's a no call for me.

However, if the ball is on the rim, or is rattling around inside the net, or the net is grabbed, not just touched, I'm calling the offensive basket interference violation.

The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules
The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The consensus here is that BI is right. Correct?

Check it out. With the exception of BillyMac, the guy with the black belt, a whistle in his pocket, and always working in a two person crew, these other guys really know their stuff:

Originally Posted by bballref3966

I've seen officials not call it when a player just swipes a finger on the net.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've never called it short of it actually affecting the shot...a mere touch of the bottom of the net is not what the rule was intended to address.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Did y'all tell them that was a weak-a$$ call?

Originally Posted by APG

All and all, said it was a good one to lay off on.

Originally Posted by AremRed

Which is the intent of the NFHS rule and the way I call it.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I see it happen quite often and have yet to have seen it called even once. In all the times I've seen it there has never been a word said about it by coaches, announcers, players, or anyone around the game. Most people realize that merely touching the net as the ball is falling through or on the rim really isn't enough to affect the shot. Grabbing the net is, of course, different.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Technically, on the written test, it's an offensive basket interference violation. No goal. Easy call on a written test. In my real game, in real time, if I'm the trail official, and if the ball is totally in the net, totally controlled by gravity alone, and the net is just barely touched by the offensive player, it's a no call for me. However, if the ball is on the rim, or is rattling around inside the net, or the net is grabbed, not just touched, I'm calling the offensive basket interference violation.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Technically, on the written test, it's an offensive basket interference violation. No goal. Easy call.

In my real game, in real time, if I'm the trail official, and if the ball is totally in the net, totally controlled by gravity alone, and the net is just barely touched by the offensive player, it's a no call for me.

However, if the ball is on the rim, or is rattling around inside the net, or the net is grabbed, not just touched, I'm calling the offensive basket interference violation.

The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules
The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

To start off, I totally agree, and thank you.

As a young official going by intent is scary. I mean, I feel I'm not experienced or respected enough to get away with this argument.

Sorry to be pushy, but if I am in this situation and an assignor asks, it's nice to have a solid answer that's backed up by the rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

While I could look up all this stuff before posting, I like to test my knowledge or lack thereof. Therefore, sometimes, I don't go "open book" when talking around here. I went by things written by others and responded.

"Thinking" about what the answer might be before looking it up is a good thing. Just posting it here, not so much. imo anyway.

And, yes, sometimes you need to look in more than one spot in the book. That's where the paper version (as opposed to the electronic versions) comes in handy, I think. You'll often find other stuff that you didn't know when you are looking for an answer.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

But it is a goal if the ball remains in the net, not just passes through. So thanks for that, but it still doesn't answer the question of when a made basket counts, and how that relates to the op.

It's not a basket until the ball passes through the bottom of the net. If you're working NCAA, that's when the clock stops in the last minute of play.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's not a basket until the ball passes through the bottom of the net. If you're working NCAA, that's when the clock stops in the last minute of play.

“A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.” (NFHS 5-1-1)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

“A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.” (NFHS 5-1-1)

As has been said before, the "remains in" is for when the bottom of the net is tangled such that the ball gets stuck in the net. Otherwise, you could have offensive players "finish" the shot by jamming a jump shot down once it has fallen partially into the basket.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As has been said before, the "remains in" is for when the bottom of the net is tangled such that the ball gets stuck in the net. Otherwise, you could have offensive players "finish" the shot by jamming a jump shot down once it has fallen partially into the basket.

Is there any written reference for that explanation? It is possible that a new net is too tight to let the ball pass immediately through. Years ago, we were instructed to check the nets, at least by watching the ball during warm-ups, to verify whether any difficulty might occur, because of a new net.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Is there any written reference for that explanation? It is possible that a new net is too tight to let the ball pass immediately through. Years ago, we were instructed to check the nets, at least by watching the ball during warm-ups, to verify whether any difficulty might occur, because of a new net.

That is another possibility....basically something wrong with the basket so that i can't pass through.