Shooting at the wrong hoop

[rbruno]

This happened yesterday to me in an AAU tournament game.
Blue team passes the ball in after a made basket by White. Blue player shoots at the wrong basket and the ball goes in. Now in the confusion the White team takes the ball out of bounds at that basket and passes it in. Players are all confused as to what happened and are standing around without violation. The Blue team steals the ball races up to their correct hoop where we have a White foul on the shot. The white coach is telling me that I have to correct this. I tell him it is not correctable and things have to stand as they are with Blue shot at Whites basket counting for White and the suspequent foul at the other end standing.
Should we have blown the whistle after Blue shooting at the wrong hoop and White passing in?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rbruno

Should we have blown the whistle after Blue shooting at the wrong hoop and White passing in?

I can't find a citation, but the officials should have sounded the whistle, and stopped play, as soon as the officials become aware of the confusion, and when the ball was dead, or when there in was "pause" in the action. Nothing here is correctable, and points count for the ball entering the team's basket, no matter who shot it in the basket. Points, fouls, and time, count, and can't be part of a "do-over". Be careful if a player is fouled in the act of shooting because it isn't an act of shooting if it's attempted at the wrong basket (that doesn't seem to apply here). Also, when something like this happens, one team often goes the wrong way and creates a backcourt situation, which is a good time to stop play (that doesn't seem to apply here). If this happens immediately after a jump ball (that doesn't seem to apply here) to start the game, or an overtime, and it was caused by an officials error, then ignore the above, count everything as if the teams were going the correct direction, turn them around, and and play ball.

This (below) may apply to the throwin by White, but it's not a perfect match to the play (above) because of the confusion of Blue shooting at the wrong basket. Unlike my suggestions above, the caseplay includes canceling points, canceling (non-flagrant) fouls, and putting time back on the clock. So, maybe my suggestions (above) are wrong, and maybe there are "do-overs" in basketball:

10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1
inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A’s basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation
if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next
throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with an unsporting technical foul; (b) assess
a delay-of-game warning for interfering with the ball after a goal; (c) cancel the
field goal; (d) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any non-flagrant foul
against A2 in the act of shooting; and (e) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire
procedure would be followed except no unsporting team technical foul would be
charged. A team technical would be assessed if the team had received a previous
delay warning. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in
which an official administers the throw-in and a mistake allows the wrong team
to inbound the ball. (4-47-3; 7-6-6; 10-1-5d)

[Kelvin green]

Here's my thought. Blue scores at wrong basket, white gets 2 points. It is now Blues throw in. White grabs the ball and throws it in, interfering with the throw in. Blow the whistle, call a delay of game warning, get the ball and give it to blue.

It was white interfering with the ball that caused the confusion. All of this prevented if they would have let the ball go after they scored... Seems a simple way out under the rules.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1
inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A’s basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation
if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next
throw-in begins: ....... This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in
which an official administers the throw-in and a mistake allows the wrong team
to inbound the ball. (4-47-3; 7-6-6; 10-1-5d)

BillyMac is right, the OP situation is not exactly the same. There are a lot of ways one could interpret this. I agree with Kelvin that if you don't blow the whistle when the goal is scored at the wrong basket, but you're able to recognize it during the throw-in by white, then you can blow the whistle, issue the DOG, and give the ball to blue to continue as normal. But here, that throw-in by white ended, so it's too late for DOG.

The "almost the same" case play says, "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which an official administers the throw-in and a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball." In this case, a mistake did in fact allow the wrong team to inbound the ball, and this throw-in was not administered by an official. So from a logic standpoint, this process could apply.

Then you have to go back up to the front of the case play where it says, "The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation [I recognize that I'm blurring the lines of 'specific' here] if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins..." So in the OP case, had the opponents not gained control, I think you could at least argue that you get a do over, complete with cancelling fouls and putting consumed time back on and all that.

However, in this case, the opponents do gain control, so ultimately I think this is just an officials' error (failed to stop play when they should have and didn't recognize it until it was too late) and we just have to eat it. White gets 2 points for the blue wrong basket, and then after the steal the white foul stands and blue gets free throws at its basket.

This underscores how important it is to stop the play after the first incorrect basket. Officials should always know when this situation happens.

[Danvrapp]

Originally Posted by rbruno

Should we have blown the whistle after Blue shooting at the wrong hoop and White passing in?

rbruno: What age level was this? For an AAU game where the kids are, say, middle school or younger, I let the kid put the ball in the wrong hoop, score the bucket, then blow the whistle to make sure everyone's headed the right direction and get everyone sorted out.

Different than perhaps just some verbal direction I'd try to give in the middle of a HS game in February...

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

BillyMac is right, the OP situation is not exactly the same. There are a lot of ways one could interpret this. I agree with Kelvin that if you don't blow the whistle when the goal is scored at the wrong basket, but you're able to recognize it during the throw-in by white, then you can blow the whistle, issue the DOG, and give the ball to blue to continue as normal. But here, that throw-in by white ended, so it's too late for DOG.

The "almost the same" case play says, "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which an official administers the throw-in and a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball." In this case, a mistake did in fact allow the wrong team to inbound the ball, and this throw-in was not administered by an official. So from a logic standpoint, this process could apply.

Then you have to go back up to the front of the case play where it says, "The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation [I recognize that I'm blurring the lines of 'specific' here] if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins..." So in the OP case, had the opponents not gained control, I think you could at least argue that you get a do over, complete with cancelling fouls and putting consumed time back on and all that.

However, in this case, the opponents do gain control, so ultimately I think this is just an officials' error (failed to stop play when they should have and didn't recognize it until it was too late) and we just have to eat it. White gets 2 points for the blue wrong basket, and then after the steal the white foul stands and blue gets free throws at its basket.

I will have to disagree...
You can't say the throw in ended by white ( and thus no delay) because you never had a legal throw in.

The ball by rule never became live after the made basket.... The only way the ball becomes live is if it is at the disposal of the player making the throwin.

White interferes with the play, Blue can't throw it in, blue can't make the ball live properly. So by letting the play go ( and eating it) you have a whole bunch of nonsense while the ball is dead. ...gotta have a legit throwin here that never happened.

I would rather see a whistle here, have the officials sort it out. Even calling it inadvertent gets the game out of a mess. You can stop the game here to make sure the score is correct in the book.. Whatever the reason stop the game and get it back on track...

The foul is now a dead ball foul ( foul is a T) and the game has turned into a mess, sorry but I can't buy that we have to let it go...

Who will complain if we stop and get it right or approximately right? Who will complain that we let a game turn into a fiasco with a decision that can be supported by rule less than stopping the game for us to get it back?

Definitions and knowing when ball becomes live or dead is very important here.

[Rob1968]

The OP situation is similar to
"Case Book 5.2.3 SITUATION: A1 completes the throw-in to A2 to begin the secodn half. A2 is confused and dribbles toward the basket Team A used during the first half and dunks the ball into the basket of Team B.
RULING: Legal goal. Two points are awarded to Team B. The ball is bounced to a player of Team A out of bounds at the basket of Team B. Team A may put the ball in play from anywhere along the end line as after any score by Team B (earned or awarded)."

Notice that the ball being bounced to a player of Team A, indicates that an official has taken control of the ball. In such a case, it is appropriate that the official stop the clock, and verify that the score is correctly credited to Team B, and in so doing, the teams are informed of the correct direction of play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rbruno

This happened yesterday to me in an AAU tournament game.
Blue team passes the ball in after a made basket by White. Blue player shoots at the wrong basket and the ball goes in. Now in the confusion the White team takes the ball out of bounds at that basket and passes it in. Players are all confused as to what happened and are standing around without violation. The Blue team steals the ball races up to their correct hoop where we have a White foul on the shot. The white coach is telling me that I have to correct this. I tell him it is not correctable and things have to stand as they are with Blue shot at Whites basket counting for White and the suspequent foul at the other end standing.
Should we have blown the whistle after Blue shooting at the wrong hoop and White passing in?

If blue shot at the wrong basket, white gets the points. Blue gets the ball again. This is the point where you should have stopped the game to prevent white from getting the ball. White coach was right, you should have stopped it.

By the time the foul occurred, though, it was too late.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Danvrapp

rbruno: What age level was this? For an AAU game where the kids are, say, middle school or younger, I let the kid put the ball in the wrong hoop, score the bucket, then blow the whistle to make sure everyone's headed the right direction and get everyone sorted out.

Different than perhaps just some verbal direction I'd try to give in the middle of a HS game in February...

HS game in February, I'll kill it if the wrong team grabs the ball for the throw in. If everyone seems to figure it out immediately, let it play out. Just make sure white gets the points.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

... you should have stopped it.

Easy to say, and probably easy to do. Do a few AAU games in a row. Mental, and physical, fatigue start to factor in. Maybe "Fashion Police" rules are not enforced to the nth degree. Officials are seeing different color uniforms, or the same color uniforms, all day, with some players possibly wearing incorrect color undershirts. It's a simple play that we've all seen a million times, a made basket, followed by a throwin, so maybe the officials are only paying 75% attention. Suddenly a Blue player attempts a try. Official scratches his head, "Is he shooting the right way? What half is this? Where are the team benches? Maybe I'd better ... Wait? Now White has the ball? White? What the hell ...? Blue? White? Maybe I'd better ... No way? A foul? A freaking foul? Can this get any worse?"

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by rbruno

Should we have blown the whistle after Blue shooting at the wrong hoop and White passing in?

The whistle should have come after the ball entered the wrong hoop. Offer white the points; give blue the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The whistle should have come after the ball entered the wrong hoop. Offer white the points; give blue the ball.

"Should've, would've, could've."

Easy to say from the comfort of our chairs in front of a computer monitor, but I'm sure that is was more difficult for the officials that were there in real time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Should've, would've, could've."

Easy to say from the comfort of our chairs in front of a computer monitor, but I'm sure that is was more difficult for the officials that were there in real time.

Yep, and the OP seems to have asked the "what should I have done" question. We all know how this tends to play out, but it doesn't do any good in the after math to make excuses. The OP didn't do that, so why are you?

Knowing how it should have been handled is crucial to learning from it and handling it right next time. We all know there will be a next time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Knowing how it should have been handled is crucial to learning from it and handling it right next time. We all know there will be a next time.

Then the answer to the question, "What should I have done?", becomes quite simple. Stop the game as soon as Blue scores in the wrong basket, make sure that the scorekeeper awards the points to the White team, and give the ball to Blue for a run the endline throwin.

Every second that the official waits after Blue scores in the wrong basket to sound his whistle further complicates the situation, and makes it increasingly hard for the players to figure it out on their own, and for the official to "correct" with a later whistle. As the official waits, there can be a few more, "What should I have done?", as each "mistake" dominoes into the next "mistake".