The 9-step pivot

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I don't think travels are difficult to see from the standpoint that we all see the same footwork and movements. What becomes problematic is ideas like gathered, released, control. There are very fine points in terms of when we feel the player has collected/controlled the ball, when we feel like then could dribble again, and when we can see the ball come out of contact with their hand. This is why I feel (that much like fouls) in an area or association you should be watching video and coming to a relative consesus on what you are going to consider things like:

- clearly released
- gather
- dribbling motion etc.

And, according to the actual dribble/travel rules, there is no such thing as "gather". When the ball comes to rest in a hand to end the dribble, it is being held. There is no mystical 3rd status between dribbling and holding unless they lose player control. It doesn't require that they squeeze it between two hands and pull it in to some magic spot. Gather may be a valid NBA term but it doesn't exist at other levels and applying it to them is not currently supported by the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And, according to the actual dribble/travel rules, there is no such thing as "gather". When the ball comes to rest in a hand to end the dribble, it is being held. There is no mystical 3rd status between dribbling and holding unless they lose player control. It doesn't require that they squeeze it between two hands and pull it in to some magic spot. Gather may be a valid NBA term but it doesn't exist at other levels and applying it to them is not currently supported by the rules.

Yep, and just fleshing this out a bit.

The point at which you would call a double dribble if the player proceeds to dribble is the point at which you should consider the ball to be "held" for purposes of pivot foot establishment.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yep, and just fleshing this out a bit.

The point at which you would call a double dribble if the player proceeds to dribble is the point at which you should consider the ball to be "held" for purposes of pivot foot establishment.

So, in the play being discussed, maybe the officials didn't think he was holding the ball . . .

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

So, in the play being discussed, maybe the officials didn't think he was holding the ball . . .

Oh, I just think they missed it. Digging any deeper than that is pointless.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yep, and just fleshing this out a bit.

The point at which you would call a double dribble if the player proceeds to dribble is the point at which you should consider the ball to be "held" for purposes of pivot foot establishment.

That's not necessarily true. Say a player stumbles then lunges and barely touches the ball with both hands, that would end the dribble but there could be a loss of control.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That's not necessarily true. Say a player stumbles then lunges and barely touches the ball with both hands, that would end the dribble but there could be a loss of control.

Fair point, but I'd say the guideline would only apply to determining when a player began holding the ball. If he's not holding it as he stumbles, or even if he fumbles at some point before moving, a travel wouldn't necessarily apply.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That's not necessarily true. Say a player stumbles then lunges and barely touches the ball with both hands, that would end the dribble but there could be a loss of control.

The point in my post ('unless they lose player control") to which he responded covered that possibility. Loss of control would always end any possibility of a travel. But, I think, that in most cases, control is not lost between the end of the dribble and what immediately follows.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yep, and just fleshing this out a bit.

The point at which you would call a double dribble if the player proceeds to dribble is the point at which you should consider the ball to be "held" for purposes of pivot foot establishment.

Or a carry....since a carry is just the ending of one dribble by allowing the ball to come to rest in a hand (holding it) and the immediate start of another dribble.

Remember that double (illegal) dribble and carry were once, not all that long ago, the same violation. They only split out carry to improve the communication of what happened. They did not a change the rules of what was or was not legal.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And, according to the actual dribble/travel rules, there is no such thing as "gather". When the ball comes to rest in a hand to end the dribble, it is being held. There is no mystical 3rd status between dribbling and holding unless they lose player control. It doesn't require that they squeeze it between two hands and pull it in to some magic spot. Gather may be a valid NBA term but it doesn't exist at other levels and applying it to them is not currently supported by the rules.

Perhaps not, but that concept is used on courts at lower levels all across the country.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

Perhaps not, but that concept is used on courts at lower levels all across the country.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I've seen plenty of officials call reaching fouls, over the back, and illegal dribbles for a high dribble, too. That doesn't make it correct.

It may not be the biggest issue on the table but don't you think the rules makers would just change the rule or make even ONE statement to that effect if that is really how they wanted it called?